What if Jon Snow is just a bastard?

[garion77]

I know all the theories about Jon Snow... I played with some myself. I wanted him to be Rhaegar/Laurana child hide from Robert by Ned. But what if GRRM never give us an answer? Would it change anything about how you feel about Jon?

The Targayen side is a long shot the more I think about it. Jon is not immune to fire as we saw when he burned his hand killing the wrath that tried to kill Mormont. And I believe to manage Dragons, you need some immunity to fire. Dragons are creatures of fire. So I would guess, it would take a creature of fire to control one...

And why did GRRM put so much focus on Jon's burnt hand? Why did he mention on more than one occasion about Jon's burnt hand?

I like what Dany said when they killed her brother... He isn't a dragon, because fire can't kill a dragon...

And the only logical reason for Jon being part Targayen is to control a dragon. To control a dragon you need to be immune to fire. Jon isn't immuned to fire.

[Boaz]

garion, good topic. Lots of Targaryens were susceptible to fire. Only one, or a few, have had the true dragon's blood. I don't know if it's genetics, psychological, or destiny. A burned hand may be a clue, but by itself it is not conclusive. Even if he is a Targaryen (legitimate or not), I never really was sold that he'd be one of the three heads. From the moment that Pyp, Sam, and Grenn bring him back up until his last paragraphs of his last POV in ADWD, I considered Jon loyal to the NW.

I know GRRM likes to throw lots of details in the mix... either to decieve, to foreshadow, or just to embellish the tale. I have serious trouble telling the red herrings from, uh, the, uh, real herrings. But is the burned hand a stronger clue than Ghost's eyes, Aerys' infatuation with Joanna, or three Kingsguard with Lyanna? Which are storytelling and which are foreshadowing?

But to me, the intriguing part of your thread are the words "just a bastard." I've bought into Jon being either a son or grandson of Aerys II for almost ten years now. I've dismissed every attempt by every poster to convince me he's not a Targaryen or bastard Targaryen. But I'll say with you...

"What if Jon Snow is just a bastard? Would it change anything about how you feel about Jon?"

Yes. Absolutely.

I'd feel that he's a new character. I might stop disliking him. I might see him again as he sees himself and not as a son of prophecy and a man of destiny.

[garion77]

Originally Posted by Boaz

garion, good topic. Lots of Targaryens were susceptible to fire. Only one, or a few, have had the true dragon's blood. I don't know if it's genetics, psychological, or destiny. A burned hand may be a clue, but by itself it is not conclusive. Even if he is a Targaryen (legitimate or not), I never really was sold that he'd be one of the three heads. From the moment that Pyp, Sam, and Grenn bring him back up until his last paragraphs of his last POV in ADWD, I considered Jon loyal to the NW.

I know GRRM likes to throw lots of details in the mix... either to decieve, to foreshadow, or just to embellish the tale. I have serious trouble telling the red herrings from, uh, the, uh, real herrings. But is the burned hand a stronger clue than Ghost's eyes, Aerys' infatuation with Joanna, or three Kingsguard with Lyanna? Which are storytelling and which are foreshadowing?

But to me, the intriguing part of your thread are the words "just a bastard." I've bought into Jon being either a son or grandson of Aerys II for almost ten years now. I've dismissed every attempt by every poster to convince me he's not a Targaryen or bastard Targaryen. But I'll say with you...

Yes. Absolutely.

I'd feel that he's a new character. I might stop disliking him. I might see him again as he sees himself and not as a son of prophecy and a man of destiny.

Well, like I said in an earlier thread, Jon is AA reborn. The Night Watch is the Lightbringer he will wield against the Others. Lightbringer isn't some magic sword like most think. It's the Nights Watch itself. Read the oath... It says it all in the oath... "I am the sword in the darkness"...

What I mean about just a bastard, could an ordinary man born of second class birth be a hero? I know everyone want the Prince or King or someone born of royal blood to be the hero.

Jon as is isn't pure enough for us to except as AA... We need to make him Targeryen as well... To purify his bastard's blood. Jon just being some fisherman's wife Ned knocked up go against all we view as the hero...

But what if GRRM did something most other writing refuse to do? Make a major character bastard born. Some noble got horny and slept with a commoner... Felt bad and brought the bastard home to raise as his own.

I believe GRRM will never tell us of Jon's parentage... I believe it died with Ned.

[Needle]

Originally Posted by garion77

I know all the theories about Jon Snow... I played with some myself. I wanted him to be Rhaegar/Laurana child hide from Robert by Ned. But what if GRRM never give us an answer? Would it change anything about how you feel about Jon?

The Targayen side is a long shot the more I think about it. Jon is not immune to fire as we saw when he burned his hand killing the wrath that tried to kill Mormont. And I believe to manage Dragons, you need some immunity to fire. Dragons are creatures of fire. So I would guess, it would take a creature of fire to control one...

And why did GRRM put so much focus on Jon's burnt hand? Why did he mention on more than one occasion about Jon's burnt hand?

I like what Dany said when they killed her brother... He isn't a dragon, because fire can't kill a dragon...

And the only logical reason for Jon being part Targayen is to control a dragon. To control a dragon you need to be immune to fire. Jon isn't immuned to fire.

Just a couple points:

Targs are obviously not immune to fire, only the rare few. That this has any bearing on their ability to control dragons is unlikely. Dany knows the Targs of old controlled their dragons with binding spells, magic. So lack of fire immunity has no bearing on whether or not Jon is half Targ.

The "only logical reason" for Jon to be half Targ? Because this is the Song of Ice and Fire. Lyanna + Rheagar (or Aerys) = Jon. Ice + Fire = Jon.

As Boaz would say, that's just my 2 cents!

[juleska]

Originally Posted by garion77

What if Jon Snow is just a bastard?

BLASPHEMY!!!

Okay in all seriousness, it's pretty clear that Jon Snow is technically a bastard no matter what. In the world of Westeros, a child born out of wedlock is a bastard. Highborn bastards (where both parents are highborn) have a bit of an easier time, but they are still illegitimate. So no matter who his parents are, Jon Snow is "just a bastard". Case closed.

That said....

Originally Posted by garion77

But what if GRRM never give us an answer? Would it change anything about how you feel about Jon?

No. Because I believe (in the current world, the past world and the make-believe world) that a man is what he makes himself, not what society decides he should be. Robert made himself a king. Tyrion refuses to be relegated to "just a dwarf" even though everyone continues to call him The Imp. Cersei, however wretched a ruler she may be, does not accept that a woman will never rule a kingdom.....and neither does Dany. GRRM's world is full of characters who defy the roles that society has set before them, and Jon Snow is no different than that. Who would have guessed when reading AGOT that the mocking moniker Thorne saddled on Jon, Lord Snow, would in fact come true when he assumed the role of Lord Commander of the Night's Watch?

Originally Posted by garion77

The Targayen side is a long shot the more I think about it. Jon is not immune to fire as we saw when he burned his hand killing the wrath that tried to kill Mormont. And I believe to manage Dragons, you need some immunity to fire. Dragons are creatures of fire. So I would guess, it would take a creature of fire to control one...

Needle already answered this but I just wanted to chime in with my agreement with her summary. Even Dany isn't fireproof, just more fireproof than the average Targ.

Originally Posted by garion77

And why did GRRM put so much focus on Jon's burnt hand? Why did he mention on more than one occasion about Jon's burnt hand?

I like what Dany said when they killed her brother... He isn't a dragon, because fire can't kill a dragon...

Because unlike Dany (whose mother and father were both "pure" blood Targs), Jon is only half-Targ.

Originally Posted by garion77

And the only logical reason for Jon being part Targayen is to control a dragon. To control a dragon you need to be immune to fire. Jon isn't immuned to fire.

Totally disagree. The only logical reason for Jon to be half Targ is the title of the series (as Needle pointed out already). Fire + Ice = Jon

Originally Posted by garion77

What I mean about just a bastard, could an ordinary man born of second class birth be a hero? I know everyone want the Prince or King or someone born of royal blood to be the hero.

I certainly don't *want* someone born of royal blood to be the hero. I want someone capable of overcoming the enemy and leading the kingdom to peace and prosperity, who understands what their responsibilities are and doesn't think having a metal hat and a metal chair means they can do whatever the hell they want. If that person happens to be someone born of royal blood....okay. If that person happens to be someone of common birth.....okay. I makes no matter to me either way.

Originally Posted by garion77

Jon as is isn't pure enough for us to except as AA... We need to make him Targeryen as well... To purify his bastard's blood. Jon just being some fisherman's wife Ned knocked up go against all we view as the hero...

History is full of such heroes. While I don't think this is the case with Jon (just another baseborn bastard), I don't think it's beyond the reach for GRRM to have such a character, with Jon's intelligence and capability, rise in just such a fashion.

Originally Posted by garion77

I believe GRRM will never tell us of Jon's parentage... I believe it died with Ned.

I'm inclined to agree with this. There aren't many characters who can tell us the truth of Jon.....only Howland Reed (who hasn't appeared), potentially his kids (who are stuck underground, and north of the Wall with Bran), and maybe (as a cheat) Melisandre seeing something in her fires and, for once, interpreting it correctly.

Even if he never tells us, I think he left enough clues that the conclusion is reasonable. Once all of Robert's "children" are dead (as the prophecy told Cersei), the "threat" of an unknown Targ will be wholly irrelevant, and Jon is as like to be welcomed with open arms as Dany and little Aegon.

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I Personally feel like Jon's true parentage will be brought forth in the books. It has been hinted at too much to not be.

As for how I feel when/if I find out Jon really is just Ned's Bastard son, conceived of some wet nurse named Wylla, well, I think if anything, I would Like Jon more. It would mean that everything he accomplished couldn't be just chalked up to the fact that it was his destiny, or prophesied. I think that somehow makes his accomplishments seem less important, because him becoming Lord Commander of the nights watch will severely pale to him becoming AA reborn, which is something that he didn't even need to work for, if you follow me.

However, I don't think this is the case. It is almost certain that Jon is AA, and he will most likely turn out to be the son of Rheagar or the mad King

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

Honestly, I would feel cheated. His heritage is the most talked about of any character. If GRRM failed to deliver by, say, doing a 180 and saying that it's actually Sam that's Azor Ahai (can you imagine?), I would be so sad.

[mtzGr]

I've always thought of him as Ned's true son, more so than Robb or Bran, and I do believe he is his bastard.

[Boaz]

Originally Posted by ArstenWhitebeard

It is almost certain that Jon is AA, and he will most likely turn out to be the son of... the mad King

Once you start down the Targ path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.

I am convinced Jon is a Targ. Mayhaps it is just that I want so badly to be right, but the Aerys/Joanna connection, Jaime's and Barristan's memories of noble Rhaegar, and "promise me, Ned" are all explained easily by A2+L=J.

The Targ prophecy of TPTWP and the R'hlloric prophecy of AAR are similar. Mayhaps GRRM will unite them, but until he does I'll try to keep them seperate. Azor Ahai is not presented as a Valyrian is he? He's not Aezor Aehaei. He does not have some special genetic claim to fire control. So Jon could be AAR without being TPTWP or even a Targ.

[garion77]

Originally Posted by Needle

Just a couple points:

Targs are obviously not immune to fire, only the rare few. That this has any bearing on their ability to control dragons is unlikely. Dany knows the Targs of old controlled their dragons with binding spells, magic. So lack of fire immunity has no bearing on whether or not Jon is half Targ.

The "only logical reason" for Jon to be half Targ? Because this is the Song of Ice and Fire. Lyanna + Rheagar (or Aerys) = Jon. Ice + Fire = Jon.

As Boaz would say, that's just my 2 cents!

Needle, I don't believe the series is called "A song of ice and fire" just because of Jon... Jon is ice and Dany is fire... Jon is in the cold north while Dany is the hot desert...

GRRM could have put Dany anywhere but he chose to send her to one of the hottest places in the books. While sending Jon to one of the coldest places in the book.

When Jon and Dany finally come together, they will be " A song of ice and fire".

I can not see GRRM making one character the centerpiece of his world. Jon is just one piece of a larger puzzle.

He is not the puzzle itself...

That's why I think the series gets it name.

[Peeves]

Even if he's only Eddard's get by Wylla he is still highborn.
I mean the Starks are among the most powerful houses in westeros.
The oldest too i think. Not too mention that like Dorne the North pretty much rules itself, and that the North is half of the landmass of westeros;

I never really believed in the Wylla thing though. I'm thinking more Ashara Dayne. Or am i completely crackpotting that it was her we met in the presence of the real Aegon Targaryen. I remember Tyrion remarking on the possibility of her having giving birth.

In the end though does it really matter.
It's our choices that make us who we really are. ^^

[The Imp]

There are facts that remain that aren't dependent on Jon's lineage.

1- GRRM gave him the "face of a Stark", and he has Stark blood running through his veins.

2- He's a very powerful warg, more powerful than even he knows at this point in time.

3- He's been able to shape events at The Wall and beyond.

4- He was made heir to Winterfell by Robb. One of the Mourmont ladies still has that paper.

Jon would still be a central and important character if he was not of Sratk blood

Having said that though, GRRM has spent an inordinate amount of time creating a a possible back story for Jon that involves the possibility of him being half Stark and half Targ. GRRM doesn't spend that much time on a plot line, only to later say "oh, by the way, he really was only a bastard all this time. Ha, Ha, I sure pulled the wool over everyone's eyes". GRRM enjoys writing complicated puzzles and leaving clues as to how they might be solved, or sometimes foreshadowing very important events two or thee books previous to the event occurring. GRRM's style is very unique, and very much like a fingerprint. Jon being "just a bastard" would be the antithesis of that style.

So the short answer to the OP's question is, I don't beleive the possibility exists.

[Tywin]

Originally Posted by KiwiBird

I never really believed in the Wylla thing though. I'm thinking more Ashara Dayne. Or am i completely crackpotting that it was her we met in the presence of the real Aegon Targaryen. I remember Tyrion remarking on the possibility of her having giving birth.

This is a new one to me. We're talking about Septa Lemore, right?

[Needle]

Personally, I am pretty sure Septa Lemore is the mother of one of the sand snakes, Tyene, I think. Doran says her mother was a septa and she is one of Aegon's teachers and protectors.

[ArstenWhitebeard]

you know, I completely forgot about Septa Lemore.

I always though, while reading the book, That there was deffinately some mystery to her, and that she was certainly not who she said she was, but then she was just gone from my mind.

The more theories I hear about Jon's Linneage, the more I think it is going to be something completely out of left field. Personally I tend toward it being R+L=J but I wouldn't be surprised if it was something else entirely, although I am going to say that, for sure, Lyanna is his mom and Ned is NOT his dad.