Mace Windu vs. Darth Sidious

[Darth Angelus]

Ok, I searched back on this forum and could not find any topic on this duel, so I decided to make one.

This is one of the most discussed topics on Star Wars forums, and many fans are (or at least have been) passionate about it. More than once has this derailed into flame war. I sincerely hope this does not happen here.

The argument, of course, is about what truly happened here. When Mace Windu got the (apparent) upper hand in the fight, was it legitimate, and if so, to what extent? When Sidious dropped his lightsaber, was it against his will, or on purpose?

On the one hand is the direct, possibly a bit simplistic approach that what you see is exactly what happened. That would indicate Sidious faked it when he ran out of juice for lightning (the "I am too weak. Don't kill me, please!" part) but not before.
The other is a bit more complex. That would say Sidious is significantly more powerful than Windu and could have won much earlier, without Anakin's help, but needed to look weak to turn Anakin, or something along those lines.

About my position. Let us discuss power ratings (geek subject, but still) first. Prior to Episode III, fans had quite good reasons to believe Sidious was the significantly stronger character. I would have said the same. It is the Emperor, for crying out loud. Mace Windu is a bit of a secondary character, even though he is the second greatest Jedi. I am a bit of a math guy, so I like numbers. Even so, I would not normally express it like this about relative character power in a work of fiction, but here is a figure. If it were my story, I would have Windu (or his equivalent) in the range of 70-80% of Sidious (or his equivalent). Roughly that power level seems to work best with the narrative and their respective roles. That is taking account my overall knowledge of speculative fiction. Many other fans think like that, which is they would believe Windu could not have won unless Sidious let him.
Here is the catch, though. It is not my story, nor any other fans. Various quotes from Lucas and Gillard about the making of Episode III would put Windu a lot higher. Reinterpreting normal launguage into a percentage would place him around 90-95% of the emperor's power. It may sound counter-intuitive in the overall saga, but I cannot interpret the quotes as Mace Windu being below 90% of Sidious. I am inclined to put Windu only a very slight percentage below Sidious in power. No, I won't argue how incredibly powerful Sidious was in some Expanded Universe novel, or justify that position in any other way whatsoever. A lot of angry, passionate Star Wars fans have flamed me after the movie came out, years ago, and seem to think I and others like me owed them an explanation that made sense to them. That is ludicrous, as flaming someone retelling character power ratings based on quotes by the author of the saga would be an undeniable case of shooting the messenger. Being mad at the person who just retells someone else's story is more than a little stupid. If you don't like what you hear, it is the author who wrote it. You can say other people misinterpreted the author, but those quotes did not really seem that ambigous, so people had good reason to think the key people working on the movie rated merely a few percent below Sidious in power. How can the messenger really be blamed for someone else's story?
The tl:dr summary: Personally, I would have written Windu to be around 70-80% of Sidious's power level, if it were my story, but quotes from George Lucas seems to suggest a figure more like 90-95% of Sidious (probably in the upper part of that range).

That was for power ratings. Now for him to need to look weak for Anakin. That, I am not sure what to respond to. No, Sidious had a trump when it came to Anakin, that Anakin needed Sidious alive to save Padme (or thought he did). How Windu being dead once Anakin arrived to the scene would have changed that, I cannot see. Does everyone need to look helpless in order to turn someone? Did Sidious play helpless when he turned Dooku, too?
Sure, the way things played out, Anakin' being forced to make a split second decision to cut off Windu's hand accelerated his turn, but the same could be said about saving Luke in Episode VI, and that just happened to play out that way. I guess since Sidious is a schemer, unlike Luke, interpreting mirroring narrative situations differently might be somewhat justifed, so half a point. Just half, because it cannot be proven (except for that his running out of juice for lightning was fake).

So, we stand with an issue that cannot be given a final answer, and I have looked at it from every angle I can think of. I have studied math and logic at university, within computer science, so I believe I have fairly sharpened logical skills. I see dead ends in this discussion. I have no strong conviction, but here is what I think (not a scientific opinion)...

Sidious letting Windu win is probably the most rational answer, given the narrative and the characters involved, the relative power ratings (the genre typical ones for their specific roles, not the Episode III quotes). Sidious's motives are harder to speculate on, because he might not have needed to appear to lose, and throwing his lightsaber might have posed a risk if Windu had gone for the kill in the seconds immediately after when Sidious rolled away in the window, before Anakin had quite gotten into position to interfere.
Still, it can be argued that having the Emperor beaten by a second role cheapens him.
So, overall, seeing the genre, that does make the most sense.

Still, if I were to speculate about what Lucas intended when he wrote the scene, I would have to go with Windu actually beating him in the lightsaber part of the duel. That seems to be what Lucas says in the commentary, and it is perfectly consistent with the Prequel trilogy as a whole. I am inclined to believe the most direct, simplistic answer is true here. It is just my guess.
And no, I don't really think I need to justify how it makes sense to those who think otherwise, either, as I am not the author, but merely speculating on what the author thinks.

Here is the thing...power ratings of characters are an incoherent mess in the Prequels. Dooku handily beats Anakin in Episode II, despite the latter being 2.5 times more potentially potent (Anakin pre-immolation is 200% of Emperor, whereas post-immolation, he is 80% of Emperor, like Dooku, and 200/80 = 2.5). Yes, Dooku had more training and experience, but ten years for Anakin is not really that short (Luke learned quite a bit in much less time) and he should have surpassed Dooku long since, with or without dark side, as he is far more gifted.
Jedi took down very few troops during Order 66 (yes, they could be outnumberd, but I would expect a council Jedi like Ki-Adi Mundi to take down more than one or two, when small bears with primitive weapons in Episode VI were so effective against stormtroopers).
An amazing TWO troopers were tasked to take out the greatest Jedi, Yoda, and Sidious was surprised Yoda survived that. Yes, Yoda did need to survive for the story of the Original Trilogy, but he did not need to survive as far as Sidious was concerned. He should never confuse his own motivations as a narrator to have Yoda survive with Sidious's motivations. Sidious would have every reason to wish to see Yoda's demise, and he should be written in character to reflect that. There should have been a true attempt on Yoda's life during Order 66, which Yoda would survive anyway.
Let us not get started on the dimunitive size of the clone army, roughly a million in a galaxy of thousands of star systems, about a whopping 100 for each of the ten or so thousand star systems that were to join the separatist (according to Dooku in Episode III). That would not be enough to uphold an occupation of defeated hostile planets, if the civilians were stripped of all weapons. Fighting a galaxy scale war with that is laughable. Sarcasm: I guess United Kingdom had around thirty soldiers during World War II.

I could go on and on. Point is, numbers and power scales relations are completely off in the Prequels. As is major parts of plot (even the scheme to stage a fake war to come into power and take out the Jedi is brilliant, and would have made for great movies if better made). So, anyway, when power rating coherence is this poor, how can you claim that someone who Lucas would rate only slightly below Sidious in power actually being able to legitimately defeat him without Sidious letting him to be impossible? How exactly is that any more absurd than Dooku defeating 2.5 times more potentially potent Anakin in Episode II, or fighting galactic war with about a million soldiers?

And don't say it cheapens the Emperor! This is the guy who made Greedo shoot first and put Jar Jar Binks in there.

Tl;dr: Power rating-wise, the Prequels are an incoherent mess, so there is no reason to expect things to be otherwise here.

Can anyone else see why I am inclined to believe Lucas intended the direct, simplistic answer, given past experience, rather than him thinking Sidious was too powerful for Mace Windu, when he never seemed to think about power ratings forming a coherent system otherwise?

Sorry about long post, but I hope you enjoy! You can just laugh at the Prequels.

[PTeppic]

I guess the answer is partially addressed by: who is the target audience?

[Darth Angelus]

Originally Posted by PTeppic

I guess the answer is partially addressed by: who is the target audience?

Yeah, good point. People are inclined to want it to fit into how they want to see the saga, which is understandable. Then again, it may have been purposefully left ambigous in hopes of pleasing two different parts of the fanbase (succeeding also in inciting vicious and ultimately pointless and stupid flame wars on forums).

When it comes to the Star Wars Prequels, I think they try to please so many that the movies lose direction. Like redlettermedia.com pointed out in the review of Episode II, Samuel L. Jackson was probably included to appeal to a certain demographic, which would be black people. To add my comment on the matter, people don't like films that don't seem to represent their kind, which makes movie producers include token minorities (the single female or the single black person). I am not against including black people, but the thing with token minorities is that they are essentially a ploy to appear more diverse than is the case. It is calculated business.
Now, about Samuel L. Jackson, he has a bit of a "king of cool" reputation, and I guess the target audience his inclusion was intended for would want him to be kind of badass. Some hardcore old school Star Wars fans would want the Emperor untouchable by someone like him, but they would pay for ticket regardless.

Also, I think Lucas has a tendency to let real world popularity spill over. Boba Fett was a bounty hunter in Episode V-VI, but he was never mentioned as the best in the galaxy. He became a very popular character, so he was retroactively written to be the best in the Expanded Universe. Then, in Episode II, his armour was polished up and he got a new first name, Jango. Essentially, it is the same character. Had Boba been unpopular, he would not have been called the best, nor would Jango be in Episode II.
As for Darth Vader, he got a whole prophecy (one of the worst I have seen in speculative fiction) that in no way helped the story or made his character more interesting. redlettermedia.com also explains how pointless that is, in his Episode III review, and I agree 100%. Darth Vader is only cool in Episodes IV-VI, and the prophecy is never mentioned there. Again, real world fame spilling over into story.
And I would guess the same goes for Samuel L. Jackson as Mace Windu. I think Mace Windu was written to be a stronger Jedi than he would have been if the actor had not had that fame (and reputation) in our world. I mean, the "This party's over." comment in the Geonosis arena is more Samuel L. Jackson than it is Jedi, really.

Anyway, I don't really dislike Mace Windu. Unlike the two young Anakins, the actor is at least cool. Some people would say he is miscast, but it never really bothered me that much. The Prequels suffered from poor dialogue and script. That is how he became a flat character. Most actors in the Prequels were good, actually, and did a fine job with what they had to work with. Hayden, I can't say, because the only other film I have seen him in is Jumper, which had a terrible script, too.

I just think Samuel L. Jackson's fame and repuation may have spilled over into the character's power level a bit. That would irk some fans, but really, it is far from the worst problem with the Prequels.

[Huttman]

Whew, that was a long post. When I watched the fight I noticed something very interesting not too many others I know picked up on. After Sidious killed the first three Jedi and the fight moved into his red office, there was a moment when Mace Windu was caught with Sidious' lightsaber at his chest and Windu's arms spread wide open. The look on Windu's face after looking down at the saber was one of disgust like I can't believe that just happened and you're toying with me. I believe Darth Sidious was indeed playing with Mace to keep the fight going until he could sense Anakin was nearby. That, and I'm sure he was a great swordsman too.
The Sith rely on their anger to fuel their motives, but patience was an attribute Palpatine had in abundance. Mace Windu and many other Jedi were too confident in their own self like Yoda had said earlier. I think that was the reason Palpatine had the upper hand with the Jedi from the start.
On a side note, I just recently read the Revenge of the Sith novel and it was very entertaining. Great detail went into the 'conversion' of Anakin by Palpatine. Also, I enjoyed how they described how Palpatine got his lightsaber into the Chancellor's office in the first place.

[Cayal]

The problem with the fight was it was entirely unbelievable and that is because Ian McDiarmid, like Alex Guiness in a New Hope, was too old to make it look decent.

Also the fact he killed 3 Jedi Knights in a second was too unrealistic.

[C Of K]

Welcome, Darth Angelus. I think you've done a fine job of answering the question. As you've stated, there can be no definite answer on this issue until someone with the authority gives an answer. Until then, all we can do is go with our gut. As Huttman pointed out, there are clues that we can look to in the movie to satisfy our own views. ( Heya, Huttman )

My own opinion? I believe it was all a ruse. There's no telling how accurate Palpatine's visions of the future are, but we can be sure that he does plot his actions based upon what he's seen, and that he was able to see into the future much more clearly than the jedi. Knowing this, it's highly suspect to me that the same guy who killed 3 or 4 jedi masters in a matter of seconds, and tore up the senate chamber in combat with Yoda, lost his weapon just as his prospective protege was arriving, whereby Anakin would be forced into making the choice of whether to save the life of Chancellor Palpatine (a man he needed) or to maim Windu (a man he had issues with)

Remember, by cutting Windu's hand off, Anakin wouldn't believe that he was causing Windu's death. Anakin thought Palpatine was beaten. It was a split second choice, which allowed Anakin no time to consider pros and cons. His own desires weighed heaviest on him in that moment, and he acted upon them. I think Palpatine set the whole thing up, and counted on all of that. He played Anakin as deftly as he played the whole Republic, and the jedi order.

I mostly interrested in the claims you made below.

Originally Posted by Darth Angelus

Here is the thing...power ratings of characters are an incoherent mess in the Prequels. Dooku handily beats Anakin in Episode II, despite the latter being 2.5 times more potentially potent (Anakin pre-immolation is 200% of Emperor, whereas post-immolation, he is 80% of Emperor, like Dooku, and 200/80 = 2.5).

Where do these figures come from (please don't say Super Shadow ) I've never seen any indication of exactly how powerful Anakin was. I think in Episode 1 Obi Wan said Anakin was, potentially, off the scale. To me, that means there was no way to gauge Anakin's potential.

Not only did Dooku beat Anakin in Episode 2, he beat both Anakin and Obi Wan without breaking a sweat. But, there is a quote in Episode 3 that is very valid here. Anakin stated that his powers had increased 2 or 3 times since they last met. This indicates one thing in particular. Anakin had not yet reached his potential by Episode 2. Whatever his potential was, it was currently out of his grasp. So at the time, Anakin was not more powerful than Dooku.

An amazing TWO troopers were tasked to take out the greatest Jedi, Yoda, and Sidious was surprised Yoda survived that.

Yes, it is somewhat amusing that only two of them went to kill Yoda. I can only guess that Palpatine expected the clones to use more troopers, as they had with the other masters, and was unaware that the clone captain only brought one other guy with him.

[Darth Angelus]

Originally Posted by C Of K

Welcome, Darth Angelus. I think you've done a fine job of answering the question. As you've stated, there can be no definite answer on this issue until someone with the authority gives an answer. Until then, all we can do is go with our gut. As Huttman pointed out, there are clues that we can look to in the movie to satisfy our own views. ( Heya, Huttman )

My own opinion? I believe it was all a ruse. There's no telling how accurate Palpatine's visions of the future are, but we can be sure that he does plot his actions based upon what he's seen, and that he was able to see into the future much more clearly than the jedi. Knowing this, it's highly suspect to me that the same guy who killed 3 or 4 jedi masters in a matter of seconds, and tore up the senate chamber in combat with Yoda, lost his weapon just as his prospective protege was arriving, whereby Anakin would be forced into making the choice of whether to save the life of Chancellor Palpatine (a man he needed) or to maim Windu (a man he had issues with)

Remember, by cutting Windu's hand off, Anakin wouldn't believe that he was causing Windu's death. Anakin thought Palpatine was beaten. It was a split second choice, which allowed Anakin no time to consider pros and cons. His own desires weighed heaviest on him in that moment, and he acted upon them. I think Palpatine set the whole thing up, and counted on all of that. He played Anakin as deftly as he played the whole Republic, and the jedi order.

Thanks!

Aye, that is probably what makes the most sense overall, and I do understand why many fans think like that. Unfortunately, I don't think the answer that might seem the most rational is neccessarily what Lucas had in mind, because of Prequels. So, as much as I can buy that reasoning in principle, as it is what makes for the most coherent story, I am more inclined to think the kick was legitimate and Palpatine's ruse did not start until the "I am too weak." part. That sounds like what he is saying, anyway, in the commentary on the film, but it is hard to be sure. Again, I have no problem whatsoever believing that what is worst for the story to thinking individuals may have been just how Lucas intended it. That is the problem.

I mostly interrested in the claims you made below.



Where do these figures come from (please don't say Super Shadow ) I've never seen any indication of exactly how powerful Anakin was. I think in Episode 1 Obi Wan said Anakin was, potentially, off the scale. To me, that means there was no way to gauge Anakin's potential.

It was very long ago, some Lucas quote, I am not quite certain where, but as I recall in The Making of Revenge of the Sith. And oh, yes, I know Super Shadow is a farce.

Not only did Dooku beat Anakin in Episode 2, he beat both Anakin and Obi Wan without breaking a sweat. But, there is a quote in Episode 3 that is very valid here. Anakin stated that his powers had increased 2 or 3 times since they last met. This indicates one thing in particular. Anakin had not yet reached his potential by Episode 2. Whatever his potential was, it was currently out of his grasp. So at the time, Anakin was not more powerful than Dooku.

Doubled, I believe he said. I always figured that was one of Anakin's exaggerations, like the one of Obi-Wan being as Wise as Master Yoda and as powerful as Master Windu. If you trained something for ten years already, your skill won't double in the next three. If anything, there are diminishing returns. I am willing to accept his skills improved greatly in the three years, but really, he is very bad in Episode II for being 200% of Emperor with ten years of training. Of course, Obi-Wan does seem to say he was sloppy in training because he would otherwise rival Master Yoda as a swordsman.
The point is that I find the Prequels incoherent and unbelievable, like he went with the first, rushed draft just to get it over with so he could get on with the CGI. We have to constantly suspend disbelief further and further, and make excuses. Once or twice in a film is ok, but it happens so many times it ruins the films.

Edit: Just filled in a word.

[Darth Angelus]

Originally Posted by Huttman

Whew, that was a long post. When I watched the fight I noticed something very interesting not too many others I know picked up on. After Sidious killed the first three Jedi and the fight moved into his red office, there was a moment when Mace Windu was caught with Sidious' lightsaber at his chest and Windu's arms spread wide open. The look on Windu's face after looking down at the saber was one of disgust like I can't believe that just happened and you're toying with me. I believe Darth Sidious was indeed playing with Mace to keep the fight going until he could sense Anakin was nearby. That, and I'm sure he was a great swordsman too.
The Sith rely on their anger to fuel their motives, but patience was an attribute Palpatine had in abundance. Mace Windu and many other Jedi were too confident in their own self like Yoda had said earlier. I think that was the reason Palpatine had the upper hand with the Jedi from the start.
On a side note, I just recently read the Revenge of the Sith novel and it was very entertaining. Great detail went into the 'conversion' of Anakin by Palpatine. Also, I enjoyed how they described how Palpatine got his lightsaber into the Chancellor's office in the first place.

It is true, he did look open, and Mace Windu was making a face that could be interpreted like that.
The scene looks kind of dumb, though, like Cayal pointed out. One of the other Jedi had Palpatine's back open for well over a second. Even I could have plunged my lightsaber into him at that point, I think, and I never practiced fencing, but the Jedi just stood still, waiting nicely for his turn to be cut down. So it is hard to know whether an opening you see onscreen is really an opening.

Oh, again, sorry about long initial post. I tend to get carried away when I want to be thorough. I just had to go through initial subject, summarize the arguments for both sides, and then explain why I think Lucas may very well have intended the least sensible answer, story wise.

Cheers.

[C Of K]

Originally Posted by Darth Angelus

Doubled, I believe he said. I always figured that was one of Anakin's exaggerations, like the one of Obi-Wan being as Wise as Master Yoda and as powerful as Master Windu. If you trained something for ten years already, your skill won't double in the next three. If anything, there are diminishing returns. I am willing to accept his skills improved greatly in the three years, but really, he is very bad in Episode II for being 200% of Emperor with ten years of training. Of course, Obi-Wan does seem to say he was sloppy in training because he would otherwise rival Master Yoda as a swordsman.
The point is that I find the Prequels incoherent and unbelievable, like he went with the first, rushed draft just to get it over with so he could get on with the CGI. We have to constantly suspend disbelief further and further, and make excuses. Once or twice in a film is ok, but it happens so many times it ruins the films.

True Obi Wan wasn't nearly as wise as Yoda, or as powerful as Windu. I always found that comment funny. But there is reason to believe that Anakin's power had grown. He defeated Dooku in Episode 3. I believe there are also other reasons why his words ring true. As a young man, Anakin was trained as a warrior by jedi who would never reach the potential that Anakin was capable of. In such situations, it can be difficult for a student to quickly surpass his teachers.

But fighting for 3 years in an actual war... Working out his "force muscles" that hard, for that long, would doubtlessly cause his abilities to sky-rocket. Now, he wasn't training to be a warrior, he was living the life of a warrior, constantly using the force to go beyond the teachings of his masters in order to survive. Under those circumstances, I could see his powers doubling in 3 years what it had previously taken him 10 years to achieve.

Take a sports star like Michael Jordan, for instance. In many ways he's a very comparable example to Anakin, being a man of exceptional potential on the court. As a young man, he trained for many years to become a basket ball player. He played in college, and then went pro. It took him a few years of playing at pro level before "things" suddenly clicked. Anyone who watched him win his first NBA title could swear they saw it the moment things suddenly clicked for Jordan. He went nuts, and played on a level no one had played before. The few years he had spent in the NBA could not compare in quantity to the many years he had spent practicing as a much younger man. The quality of the years he spent competing against pros 82 days a year allowed him to reach his potential much faster.

[Darth Angelus]

Originally Posted by C Of K

True Obi Wan wasn't nearly as wise as Yoda, or as powerful as Windu. I always found that comment funny. But there is reason to believe that Anakin's power had grown. He defeated Dooku in Episode 3. I believe there are also other reasons why his words ring true. As a young man, Anakin was trained as a warrior by jedi who would never reach the potential that Anakin was capable of. In such situations, it can be difficult for a student to quickly surpass his teachers.

But fighting for 3 years in an actual war... Working out his "force muscles" that hard, for that long, would doubtlessly cause his abilities to sky-rocket. Now, he wasn't training to be a warrior, he was living the life of a warrior, constantly using the force to go beyond the teachings of his masters in order to survive. Under those circumstances, I could see his powers doubling in 3 years what it had previously taken him 10 years to achieve.

Take a sports star like Michael Jordan, for instance. In many ways he's a very comparable example to Anakin, being a man of exceptional potential on the court. As a young man, he trained for many years to become a basket ball player. He played in college, and then went pro. It took him a few years of playing at pro level before "things" suddenly clicked. Anyone who watched him win his first NBA title could swear they saw it the moment things suddenly clicked for Jordan. He went nuts, and played on a level no one had played before. The few years he had spent in the NBA could not compare in quantity to the many years he had spent practicing as a much younger man. The quality of the years he spent competing against pros 82 days a year allowed him to reach his potential much faster.

First of all, thanks for a good and civil discussion.

You are making some interesting points about Michael Jordan, and he seems to be a fascinating example, which must have been very exciting to follow. Your reasoning is generally sound, but I do think you are underestimating the sheer scale of 200% of the emperor.

To get a rough idea, one must really look at a sport where the results are numbers that might be compared. Since you brought up an example real world sports, I think I might do the same, so let us just take a look at Men's 100 metres in the 2008 Summer Olympics.

A new World and Olympic Record was apparently set by the winner of the final, with the time of 9.69s. The worst result in all heats was 12.60s in heat 5, and that was almost one second slower than the second worst of 11.61s in heat 7, so it is a bit off to be here, really (one has to wonder if he was hurt). Just do the simple division 12.60/9.69 = 1.300309598. That is, worst runner (80th place) took 130% of the time of the winner and record breaker. Conversely, the winner ran at 130% of his speed, or did 130% of his performance. In this Olympic situation, 9.69s is obviously a vastly better result than 12.60s. I don't think anyone would argue otherwise. It is at the other end of the scale of Olympic runners. 130% of the worst performance.

And Anakin has the potential to perform at 200% of emperor (according to Lucas). 200% of the speed of worst runner would halve the time, so it would be 12.60/2 = 6.30s.

You will find similar results in any measurable sport, really. All the time. In a world championship, the winner is not even near 200% of the worst performance. An imaginary person performing at 200% of the 100th best person in the world would put him in a league FAR above the existing world champion. Which sport it is does not matter.
A few percent performance increase is a big deal in any Olympics or world championship, really. It can be the difference between being the winner and not being among the top twenty. A major threshold in a person's skill can be just a few percent. Now, Basketball is not measurable in this way, but if Michael Jordan were just 110% of the second best in performance, it would be more than enough to explain the "much better than anyone else", because it really is. But even without knowing much about him I'd dare to swear my life that he was not 200% of his peers. That performance level is well beyond human reach. I am not belittling him.


So, about Anakin being 200% of emperor and Dooku being 80% again, let us entertain the idea, and translate it to 100m results.

Make the emperor be able to run 100m in 10s (10m/s on average). He is about as good as they come without being a child of prophecy, after all, so I place him near the real world record, with an even number for simplicity.
Anakin has the potential to perform at 200% of him, average speed 20m/s, enabling him to do 100m in 5s. That is a superhuman result obviously, normally reserved for superhuman characters. But Anakin was made from prophecy, after all, and his midi-chlorian count was off the charts, so let's go with it. He has an otherwise unattainable potential.
Dooku would perform at 80% of emperor, average speed of 8m/s for a time of 12.5s.

Ok, so Anakin has the otherwise humanly unattainable potential to run 100m in 5s (it is fiction), and has practiced 100m for ten years. Does it seem like he would be unable to beat 12.5s then? Even if he slacked like hell, had no real hard training etc., is that even remotely possible? Yes, he can underperform relative to his real potential because he lacks real experience, but how could he underperform THAT much?

Ok, yes, this is probably mathematical geekness (I have studied computer science and math at university), but since we are discussing how "logical" the story is, I would consider this quite relevant. And I needed to present it in numbers to get my point across.


Finally, there is a bit of a contextual difference between what Anakin says and what Lucas does. When Anakin says his power had doubled, it is really more of a figure of speech than an accurate mathematical estimation. "I have become one point twentyseven times more powerful since we last met." does not really work (unless possibly if it is Data or a Vulcan from Star Trek). Besides, trash talk is usually intended to make the opponent uneasy, not presenting the truth objectively, and characters are prone to exaggerate quite a bit. Remember Dooku saying he had become more powerful than even Yoda, then failing to back it up?
Lucas, by contrast, has no real reason to talk about character potential in percentages unless he meant what he said. At least, that is what I think. Yes, I think he just said some number without thinking about it. That is what he seems to always be doing, making things up without thinking about what he is saying. That is, when he isn't letting real world popularity spill into fictional characters (Boba's popularity into including Jango, giving Anakin a prophecy that was pointless, and having Samuel L. Jacksons reputation affect Windu's power in the story) or inventing characters that are funny to himself and five year olds. That is why the Prequels don't really work.

Anyway, cheers!

[C Of K]

Of course! You present compelling arguments, and you know what you're talking about. There's little proof to go on, so it's difficult to berate someone's opinion. And some of us love geekiness. We wouldn't be on the Star Wars forum if we didn't.

Your illustration about the runners made perfect sense, and I can see where you're coming from. 200% of the emperor's potential would seem an astronomical feat. Michael Jordan could not have performed on a level that much higher than his peers. But, to listen to his most accomplished peers speak of the man, you might believe he was closer to that number than would seem possible, because sports like basketball are more mental and less physical than they would seem. The more an athlete believes that he can't compete with Jordan, the more Jordan's potential would seem to skyrocket to impossible heights. Magic and Isiah employ countless figures of speech, and probably exaggerate a lot too. In the 80s, Magic and Larry Bird saved NBA basket ball. The NBA was able to successfully market them in a way that no one else was marketable. In the 90s, Jordan rose above them both, by doing things neither were ever capable of. Jordan's Bulls competed against Magic's Lakers for the 1991 NBA title. I was a huge Laker fan. The Lakers won the first game, and lost the next four games. Needless to say, I did not like Michael Jordan afterward But, over time, I couldn't deny him. Over the next few years he grew more and more infuriating, and then he quit in the prime of his career... He actually got bored of the sport that was making him $40,000,000 a year in endorsements, and went to play baseball... I've never heard of any other athlete getting bored of a sport at the professional level because he was THAT much better than everyone else. (and amussing rundown of his finances at this site http://www.netjeff.com/humor/item.cg...dansSalary.txt ) Jordan may not have been 200% better than his peers. That figure is unrealistic. But he can be considered head and shoulders above them, which is as vague as George Lucas often is

From a fictional standpoint, which is Anakin's realm of existence, George Lucas has set up rules by which, only through the event of a miraculous birth can one sentient being achieve a power 200% greater than what would seem the height of human possibility. As it is, George Lucas' statement that Anakin was potentially 200% more powerful than the emperor is not an indication that Anakin actually ever reached that potential.

Ok, so Anakin has the otherwise humanly unattainable potential to run 100m in 5s (it is fiction), and has practiced 100m for ten years. Does it seem like he would be unable to beat 12.5s then? Even if he slacked like hell, had no real hard training etc., is that even remotely possible? Yes, he can underperform relative to his real potential because he lacks real experience, but how could he underperform THAT much?

The problem with trying to gauge the power level of every character in the prequels, is that never, at any time, are we made aware of exaclty how powerful any character is. It's difficult to be sure if a character is exaggerating or throwing up random figures. Is it just bragging when Dooku claims he's more powerful than any jedi? I think he believed it, and was proven wrong. Dooku was known for great arrogance. So, the only thing we can hope to do, is attempt to make sense of the vague statements made in the movies. Consider something Yoda established in Episode 3, the truthfulness of which, if it can not be 100% proven, would at least be difficult to dispute. In the last half hour of that movie Anakin had still not achieved a power equal to the emperor. The difference in power between them was so great that Yoda ordered Obi Wan to face Anakin, simply because Obi Wan was not nearly strong enough to face the emperor. Yoda could have been wrong about that, but it's unlikely. Yoda had possibly reached his own potential after nearly 900 years of growth. I've heard it said that the emperor was possibly 100 years old. So it's possible that he had been growing in power for at least half a century and probably longer.

The way I interpret Anakin as a student is something like a weight lifter. A man who can only bench press 100 lbs. at one point in time, can work at it sufficiently so that at some time in the future he will be able to bench press 300 lbs or more. The same guy can more than increase his physical strength 200%. 3 of the first 10 years of Anakin's training took place before his teenage years. From 9-12 most children can't hope to surpass adults in strength. So let's consider the 6 years he spent from age 13 to Episode 2. Anakin is 19 in that movie. Yet, he is not on his own at the beginning of it. In fact, he actually complains about this to Padme, that Obi Wan is holding him back. In a sense, the jedi are constraining his growth during that period, in order to mold him along a certain desired course. Even during those 6 years, Anakin is leashed, and is unable to quickly begin surpass his teachers.

Cut to Episode 3. Anakin has been an established jedi knight for some time. He is not so thoroughly constrained by others as he once was, and he has been exercising his powers in almost nonstop combat for years. Under these circumstances, the Chosen One, who can be considered "Super Human" would be able to double his powers in 3 years, and still not reach his potential. During the period of Episode 3, Anakin was obviously still somewhere closer to Obi Wan in power than he was to the Emperor. I believe I heard Goerge Lucas describe Obi Wan as an 8 on the power scale by Episode 3, whereas Anakin was a 9. (I think he made that claim on the Episode 3 DVD commentary.) This could only mean, that during Episode 2 Anakin, though a star pupil because of the destiny placed before him, was not ahead of most other jedi in the order, and his power was nothing to brag about at the time. Doubling it in 3 years might not be as amazing an accomplishment as it seemed to be.

As it is, Anakin never reached his full potential. After his disfigurement, George Lucas made the statement that Anakin was probably closer to the equivalent of Darth Maul in power and ability. The rate at which it had been possible to grow in power had no doubt been severely staggered.

[Darth Angelus]

Yes, I see where you are coming from, too. What you say does seem correct. I cannot really comment on Michael Jordan very much, because like I said, I know very little about him, besides having heard the name. I am not really a sports fan. I am fairly sure I would have enjoyed a rare and special moment for someone when their skill skyrocketed. Like I said, you can only use numbers when there is some form of measurable performance, though. Sports which don't result in objectively comparable numbers (and I am not counting sports where the contestants get scores from judges, but real, absolute mathematical figures), you can't talk about percentage of performance, really. The world record in high jump seems to be 2.45m. 200% of that is 4.90m (astronomic, unrealistic and superhuman). Take the world record in any measurable sport and double the result (or halve if it is a time) and you get an estimate of 200%.

The factors you mention are all true, of course, it is just that I am almost positive they fail to account for a gap in potential of the size Lucas mentions. Everything you say would put Anakin below his maximum potential in Episode II, even significantly below, but THAT much below. Superhuman potential to run 100m in 5s. Actual skill slower than 12.5s. If he had any kind of training, even sloppy, even held back.

My point is that people (including) overestimate what figures of speech in normal language, such as "head and shoulders above the rest" would translate into in mathematical terms (percentages). If A is 110% of B in some sport, then A would be A LOT better than B in normal language. If you are 110% of the second best in the world, then you would make sensational news indeed.

Heck, even Dooku being 80% of the emperor puts him further below the emperor than is mathematically feasible.
Running 100m in 10s (emperor) would count as outclassing beside a guy who ran the same 100m in 12.5s (Dooku), and I seriously doubt a single sports commentator would have argued otherwise. If only the two of them were running, the slower one would look absolutely pathetic. While I do definitely think the emperor was stronger, it would still be by less. Dooku put up a good fight against Yoda, who was almost even with the emperor. If the emperor's perfomance was 10s, I'd estimate Dooku's to be around 11s, not slower. At the very least, I don't really find it feasible to put Dooku below 90% of emperor (11.11s). Again, it is my speculation, and it is obviously not canon, but the films don't show a gap in performance to justify Dooku being that much worse.
Remember, a few percent is a lot on championship level. If one runner had an average time of 10s in 100m and another had an average 11.11s, you'd expect the former to win the vast majority of contests. People's performance don't really vary all that much from their personal mean, short of injury. Yes, possibly relatively to the small margins in a championship, but not in percentages. Look at the link in my last post. The winner's worst time was 10.20s. Compare that to his best, 9.69s. 10.20/9.69 = 1.0526... Best result was slightly above 105% of worst, and worst was exactly 9.69/10.20 = 0.95 = 95% of best.
Let us say one contestant is 95% of another, as a mean performance. The better contestant can perform below his mean, obviously, but so can the worse contestant, and if the two coincide, the better contestant is still likely to win. The worse contestant is really only likely to win if the better contestant performs poorly and the worse contestant performs well in the same contest.
That is also why I speculated Mace Windu was about 90-95% of Sidious. With less skill than that, he could not even compete in any meaningful manner, and Lucas did explain he could compete, unlike his posse. Ok, you might argue that compete only meant joining the contest, and even someone with a 12.60s result was in 100m Olympics, but even Mace Windu's followers were "in the competition", too. They just lost it very fast, so I don't think just being there was to "compete" with the emperor, or anyone could, including Jar Jar Binks. It must have meant putting up some kind of semblance of fight. And being rated a level 9 swordsman (same as the emperor), I don't think he'd be below 90% of the emperor based on that, either.

Really, my objection is that the gaps are too large. I think saying Anakin was about 120% or maybe 125% of the emperor might work, would put him outside midichlorian scale (the Jedi would have no reason to make a scale that high), and maybe matches what we see when we take every factor you correctly bring up into account. Dooku should have been put around 90% of the emperor, again based on what we see. Then Dooku beating would work. Remember 120-125% of the emperor is still a MONSTER. When he realized his full potential, or even came near it, he'd be invincible.
However, 200% of the emperor is, like you said, astronomical. There is no other word to describe it. Well, that is not exactly true, maybe there is. "Demigod" comes into mind. Yes, that is possible in fiction, but no, in no way does Anakin's performance in either Episode II or III reflect that. If it were true, he would just defeat enemies so easily we'd be bored.

So in essence, I agree with everything you say, but I still maintain 200% is too much, even taking all that into account. WAY too much.

He pulled those numbers out without thinking them through, likely. Same as he did with the script, which would have been a rough draft not receiving critique.

So, back to main question of thread. If it were real people, analyzing motivations and such, my overall impression of would lean towards Sidious throwing away his saber on purpose.
However, my speculation on Lucas intention would be that the disarming of Sidious from his lightsaber was legitimate. That is most direct and simplistic, but also most consistent with how I perceive Lucas planning his scripts. He even seems to be saying it, but I am not sure.

[C Of K]

200% is probably too much. When I first saw that figure it seemed astronomically high to me. I imagined Anakin moving the moon like Superman did in one of the Christopher Reeve movies. But I didn't have much choice but to accept George Lucas' words. However, I think he is practiced at pulling random figures out of thin air, and being utterly vague in his explanations. He's a man who's created a huge world that masses of people take more seriously than he does in many ways. When people have questions and questions and questions, George Lucas is not going to have logical answers prepared at all times. (maybe not even most of the time) He may be the god of the Star Wars universe in most respects, but Luke Skywalker was once a 60 year old general. Obi Wan once died in a script that was once titled Revenge of the Jedi, and Padme was once called Lady Arcadia Skywalker. Obi Wan tried to protect her from stormtroopers while she was pregnant with twins... I just think that most of the time he doesn't really know the answer, so he's often vague, and when he is not vague, he overdoes it.

If Anakin was to be compared to Jesus Christ, then by the definition of some religions he could be considered a demigod, I guess. His mother was human, but his father... PLot points like that leave George Lucas with a big unknown by which he can make outrageous claims that, if given more thought, he might not make otherwise. When I heard him refer to Anakin as a 9, and Obi Wan as an 8, it seemed like he had just at that moment concocted an imaginary scale by which he might illustrate that Anakin was ahead of Obi Wan, but that they were still extremely close. He just as easily could have said Anakin was a 4.5, and Obi Wan was a 4, but it probably wouldn't have seemed impressive enough for him or many of the fans to accept that the two heroes were not close enough to a two digit whole number.

But, the figure he supplied will satisfy many fans of Star Wars who want to see the jedi as super heroes. I don't know if you've played The Force Unleashed games. The character in that was immensely over-powered, but it received George Lucas' personal approval. So in some respects, I think even he wants to see the jedi as super heroes.

Personally, I've always enjoyed the idea that these guys were futuristic knights. Their main weapon was a laser sword, but they could do a few great tricks as well. Now they're pulling star destroyers out of the sky, running a mile a minute, bringing people back from the dead, and all sorts of things. It's no wonder he pulled out a figure like 200% so easily. Probably best not to take his figures as gospel. What would it hurt if some of us decide to disregard some of the stuff he says?

[Darth Angelus]

Agreed. And I think your first impression on the 200% was right on spot. Closer scrutiny only seems to confirm that it is ludicrus.

About him getting an endless stream of questions from fans who take Star Wars more seriously than he does, and him not having a logical answer to it all ready, you are probably correct there, too. Some fans do take Star Wars more seriously than is really healthy, as I see it.
It is not possible for him to completely grasp the full scope of his own saga, obviously. Many fans even expect his answers to be consistent with the Expanded Universe, which is stuff he didn't even invent himself for his saga. While he approves it, he only seems to include what he likes into the G-canon. And to be fair, I think that is ok. Nowhere has he promised to take any other work than his own into account.
So when some fans bring up that Kit Fisto was some great master, implying he was almost on Windu's level, it sounds like, I find that humorous. The quotes from Lucas regarding the scene itself indicates Windu is on a quite a bit higher power tier than Kit Fisto, and if that is what Lucas envisioned, that is what goes.
Now, I always found it hard to accept that other fans would disregard Lucas's words, to be honest. Still, I have come to look at it from another angle in more recent years. Obviously, fictional work is for the enjoyment of the consumers, and too much disbelief will ruin this very enjoyment. So, I indeed think it won't hurt to disregard the most outrageous claims that he seems to have not given much thought, such as this Anakin's potential being 200% of the emperor.

The problem still remains that the scripts of the Prequels seem too rushed. Plot and motivations tend to collapse when put under scrutiny. Think back to The Phantom Menace. Check out this part of redlettermedia's review, which made me aware of it. Palpatine obviously wants to be elected Supreme Chancellor, which is why he has Amidala put a vote of no confidence on Chancellor Valorum, right? But then why does he have his henchmen do everything in their power to prevent Amidala from getting to Coruscant? What if the queen had signed the treaty, or been killed why they ran the blockade? How would that get Palpatine elected as a Chancellor?
It seems like he, as Sidious, is doing the exact opposite of what will accomplish his goal as Palpatine.
Which brings us to the argument of Windu being dead when Anakin arrived would have prevented Anakin from joining him. How can one be sure of that? Why would turning Anakin to his side with Windu already dead (when he still had the saving dying Padme trump) be any more difficult than being elected Chancellor without the senate even being made aware of the crisis on Naboo? If anything, I'd guess it would be less difficult. What was Palpatine's other plan to be elected, so to speak, if his henchmen had actually been successful in stopping Amidala's escape? Does he have several plans, with the one we saw being plan B, but if so, what was plan A? It is never explained. Instead, Sidious seems to be trying to create obstactles for the very chain of events that got his Palpatine persona elected. Then plot requirements step in to fix up his election anyway. Not at all what I'd call brilliant writing for portraying a scheming person.
If we accept (with no indication to that effect whatsoever) that his election the way it did happen was his plan B, then who is to say Anakin's turn the way it did happen was not also his plan B? Do you see what I mean? Prequel scripts are too incoherent and messy to really figure out character motivations logically, when a ton of factors are left unclear.

Still, under most narratives in the genre, I'd agree that him throwing his saber intentionally may indeed have been the more rational answer (perhaps not completely rational, either, as it seems like gambling with his own life and might have gotten him killed; or maybe might not, story is not clear there, either).
It is hard to deduce the "logical" answer to the question when so many factors are unknown (at least as far as the G-canon is concerned), but yes, I'd slightly lean towards him throwing his saber if I'd have to guess.
Still, like I pointed out, I'd lean the other way from listening to Lucas and trying to understand what he says as I believe an ordinary person who is not into Star Wars would interpret them, which means trying to push away bias as much as possible.
My dilemma lies there, really. In the end, I'd probably go with the legitimate kick and disarming (of lightsaber) version, as I generally don't disregard what the author says (the way I read it) lightly, and believe that something must be far more absurd than that.

Sure, Sidious may be stronger than Windu overall, but how do we know he is a better duelist, too? In no other film has he even used his lightsaber. His power that we saw in Episode VI was all about using the Force and had nothing to do with dueling. Could not suited Vader or even Luke have been better fencers, due to his high age? We don't know.
Point is, him being a worse duelist than Windu wouldn't even neccessarily destroy that (not saying he was, because even with perfectly even matches, you can lose). He still might have won the subsequent Force battle. If we look at the Original Trilogy, neither Yoda nor Sidious were saber duelists. They were just great Force users. They were just not shown as physically fit to duel, but at the same time they were above all that. In a way, I think it may have been best to keep them that way. But they had to go flashy for no reason. In the Original Trilogy, Obi-Wan was "too old for this". In the Prequels, all you have to do is pump yourself up with the Force to move flashy and physically compete with (sometimes much) younger people.
Why does strong with the Force have to be almost linearly translated into lightsaber skill? Isn't that shallow and superficial (even though the Prequels definitely encourage that sort of kindergarten thinking)?

So even with taking the Original Trilogy into account, with all the emperor's dark side power, I think the emperor being physically beaten by a Jedi in their prime could work, only to have the emperor subsequently win anyway with his Force powers.
So just remember that even if we accept that the kick was legitimate, we in no way accept that Windu would have been the ultimate victor of the confrontation had Anakin not shown up.

Do you think Yoda and Sidious needed to be good duelist, or even duelists at all?

Anyway, yes, I played the first The Force Unleashed game, and yes, it was completely over the top, almost like the Clone Wars cartoon. I can't say I enjoyed it very much. It felt mostly like a sandbox for playing around with Force powers, rather than a finished game. Challenge was low and I was too bored to finish it.
I don't really consider it canon, and I think it comes fairly far down the list officially, too, but I see what you mean. I think Lucas sometimes tries to please everyone, including having characters for almost every thinkable demographic in the Prequels, which often destroys coherence.
When it comes to the cartoon, I see the general events as such as canon, but not the scale of the Force powers. The latter becomes inaccurate due to adaptation to cartoon requirements, I believe. It is just a powerful way to express it when you don't have access to impressive visual effects.

But anyway, the issue of this topic has long since ceased to matter to me to any significant extent. I am just trying to examine arguments on both sides, in the hopes that we can all move on, and also make the point that the position someone believes to be most likely from the scope of the saga itself and its internal implications is not neccessarily the same as the one they believe the author actually intended. It is good to remember that distinction.

As far as I am concerned, each and every fan can basically take their pick on which position they believe in, really.

[C Of K]

The expanded universe has become an amusing imitation of the Star Wars universe over the last 15 or so years. Living planets that can travel through hyperspace, darkside sith ships that have a mind of their own, entire civilizations that have no presence in the force, jedi queens, 1,000 year old sith emperors who can do almost anything, 100,000 year old monsters who can do even more...force Wizards/Angels/whatever they are, that seem to be the embodiment of the balance between the lightside and the darkside. All this stuff is so cringe-worthy to me. I've learned to ignore so much that I find laughable about Star Wars, but a lot of fans enjoy it more than the movies. They find it easy to disregard George Lucas. To each his own. Because the end of Star Wars seems to be nowhere in sight, if you wish to like Star Wars, it would almost have to be a requirement that you disregard something. It's not quite a requirement yet, but I think it's getting closer to that point all the time.

I love redlettermedia! No question about it, as a writer, George Lucas overreached his abilities with the prequels. If you're fine with watching them as pure adventure stories like the original trilogy, they aren't really that bad. If you try to follow the political twists and turns, or the mysteries, you'll quickly see the plot get irreversibly tangled in itself. So far as I can tell, the mystery of Sifo Dyas was never solved in the films, and it doesn't make much sense to leave a plot thread, like the true origin of the clone army, hanging that way. Yes, we know Dooku commissioned them somehow, but Sifo Dyas' part in the whole thing was never made clear.

Originally Posted by Darth Angelus

Which brings us to the argument of Windu being dead when Anakin arrived would have prevented Anakin from joining him. How can one be sure of that? Why would turning Anakin to his side with Windu already dead (when he still had the saving dying Padme trump) be any more difficult than being elected Chancellor without the senate even being made aware of the crisis on Naboo? If anything, I'd guess it would be less difficult. What was Palpatine's other plan to be elected, so to speak, if his henchmen had actually been successful in stopping Amidala's escape? Does he have several plans, with the one we saw being plan B, but if so, what was plan A? It is never explained. Instead, Sidious seems to be trying to create obstactles for the very chain of events that got his Palpatine persona elected. Then plot requirements step in to fix up his election anyway. Not at all what I'd call brilliant writing for portraying a scheming person.
If we accept (with no indication to that effect whatsoever) that his election the way it did happen was his plan B, then who is to say Anakin's turn the way it did happen was not also his plan B? Do you see what I mean? Prequel scripts are too incoherent and messy to really figure out character motivations logically, when a ton of factors are left unclear.

Great points that I had never considered before. With the plot of the overall story getting more and more complicated, and the movies all exceeding two hours, George Lucas was left with no way to answer the "what if questions" that needed answering. I once saw a youtube video, ( I wish I could find it now) in which George Lucas, Rick MacCallum, and a few other people had just finished watching Episode 1. The atmosphere in that room was so uncomfortable. No, wait, here it is, another video by redlettermedia... The important part starts at about 1:15 seconds into the video.

Still, under most narratives in the genre, I'd agree that him throwing his saber intentionally may indeed have been the more rational answer (perhaps not completely rational, either, as it seems like gambling with his own life and might have gotten him killed; or maybe might not, story is not clear there, either).
It is hard to deduce the "logical" answer to the question when so many factors are unknown (at least as far as the G-canon is concerned), but yes, I'd slightly lean towards him throwing his saber if I'd have to guess.
Still, like I pointed out, I'd lean the other way from listening to Lucas and trying to understand what he says as I believe an ordinary person who is not into Star Wars would interpret them, which means trying to push away bias as much as possible.
My dilemma lies there, really. In the end, I'd probably go with the legitimate kick and disarming (of lightsaber) version, as I generally don't disregard what the author says (the way I read it) lightly, and believe that something must be far more absurd than that.

It does sort of seem out of character for the emperor to gamble with his own life, but I've come to see him as something of a gambler. One instance in particular, where I know he gambled with his own life was at the beginning of Episode 3. One way or another, he was ultimately responsible for his own kidnapping. I'm certain Lord Sidious made it clear that Chancellor Palpetine was not to be killed by seperatists, and yet, he was stuck in the middle of an enormous battle. The ship he was aboard was scrapped and somehow was able to crash on the planet, with Palpatine's life intact. And yet, your point still stands, that the casual moviegoer wouldn't necessarily pick up on the fact that Palpatine was responsible for his own kidnapping, or the possibility that he threw his own lightsaber away.

So far as Yoda and Palpatine are concerned, before the prequels, I never imagined them with lightsabers, and I wish it had remained that way. I considered them both far beyond carrying physical weapons, running around, and jumping all over the place. I liked it when their limits were undefined. They were useful for a few wise words, the half concealed threat of their considerable powers, and maybe a small demonstration here or there, but what we got were two very aged ultimate commandos. Listening to Yoda grunt, and snarl, and generally skitter around like pikachu was disappointing. I think George Lucas decided to make things the way they were in order to please the casual moviegoer, as well as himself. Before Episode 2, people who had always been die-hard Star Wars fans were die-hard Star Wars fans despite the fact that none of them had ever seen Yoda fight. Many die-hard fans loved it, but some hated it. I've come to accept it, but it will never impress me.

I am just trying to examine arguments on both sides, in the hopes that we can all move on, and also make the point that the position someone believes to be most likely from the scope of the saga itself and its internal implications is not neccessarily the same as the one they believe the author actually intended. It is good to remember that distinction.

Yes, and that point has been well established. These last 3 movies sure don't make it easy to know what's going on.