Some of the ideas for the book I'm working on.

[wonkishere]

I thought I'd describe some of the technologies I'm working on for my book and see if anybody had a reaction, and it made sense.

Awhile back, a guy called Bill Stone talked about making a trip from the Earth to the Shackleton Crater on the moon. A lot of people feel strongly based on the latest data that there is a massive source of water reachable from the crater, which probably got there as a result of millenia of asteroids slamming into the crater and leaving the reservoir there below.
Stone himself talked about how Cortez burned his ships when he reached the new world, saying that a trip to the crater would be a lot like that. He wouldn't be able to carry enough fuel to get home, so once he reached his destination he would have to successfully mine the crater for fuel. He could split the ice into it's component parts, hydogen and oxygen, and use the hydrogen for rocket propellant. And once he did that he could supply spaceships on the moon with fuel from the moon, which means they wouldn't have to carry all their fuel with them.
The book I'm working on takes place in the near future, where we've gone to the crater and started to do something a lot like that. We are attempting to go to Mars and make changes in it's environment to terraform it. There is a major space station, and a base within the Shackleton crater, for resource gathering. From there, they will mine asteroids and different locations around the system.
I don't have what I refer to as blatantly "magical" technologies in the book, because it takes away from the message. In order to make this work, they recycle everything. They grow food in space, recycle their air, oxygen, and wastes, and mine resources in space. As soon as they could, they made a shipyard in orbit and used materials out there to make the ships, rather than lifting it into orbit, and some of the resources are then dropped from orbit and sold for a profit.
So no food replicators, no transporters, and realistic space flight.
I do have one particular technology that looks strange, and I refer to them as the clean tubes. The clean tubes are a bit like a way to put people in stasis, but it's not based on energy or freezing people.
Essentially, when they were trying to figure out a way to deal with cancerous tumors, they decided to put people in a tube they filled with oxygenated liquid, liquid which they can breathe in. They can then feed them different nutrients and drain the same out of the tube selectively, and put the person into a kind of sleep.
Some might assume the 'clean' tube thing is sarcastic because it's pretty messy, but the idea is that they've finally created a clean room. One analogy that people use in scientific experiments is that when you conduct an experiment, you have to do it in a clean room, keeping track of everything that changes when someone is being tested for disease. You have to keep track of the temperature they are in, what they eat, what they breathe, and so on, and it's very hard to keep track of every variable. But when someone is asleep in this tube, you are keeping track of every minute detail. You can give them exactly what nutrients you like, and test what they do over a period of weeks. Meanwhile, any wastes which leave their body can be filtered out and tested, and sensors are tracking every detail of what goes on in their body.
After perfecting the process, the people who did this realized that they were speeding up the body's regeneration processes, and in many ways people who came out of the tube seemed healthier and theoretically younger than when they went in the tube.
Eventually, they decided to put these tubes on spaceships, and put people in stasis while they traveled for many long months across the solar system. They don't need to go as fast which conserves fuel. Since their metabolism is slowed down, they consume much less oxygen and food while in the tubes, and they can live for the long periods of time necessary for long distance travel.
Eventually, they hope, they could even use this technology to cross the distance between stars.

[Bowler1]

The clean tubes is a nice idea, stasis with benefits. All the rest is stuff we could have managed from the 1960’s. Try looking up, G O Neill’s, Human Colonies in Space if you’re not already familiar with it.

[Venusian Broon]

Wonkisphere

Good to see that you are thinking through everything. It really helps the narrative to have everything 'joined up' and logical.

Your book sounds a bit like Kim Stanley Robinsons Mars trilogy (Red/Green/Blue) - a near-future look at the the terraforming of Mars. Have you read them? What would you say that your unique angle on this subject will be?

[alchemist]

Hello wonk,
The basic premise is something I'd enjoy reading. However, I think the clean tubes are quite a departure from keeping the science. This isn't a problem for me, as I love space opera, but if you're priding yourself on accuracy it doesn't really work. There's nothing you've described that seems to slow or arrest metabolism. The cancer sufferer's tumour will continue to grow while in stasis and travellers will continue to age.
In my own opera-ish writing, I've a form of chemical stasis, using a chermical injected through the blood stream, in the CSF (fluid around the brain and spinal cord) and they're floating in it too. Theoretically, it preserves tissue (they're anaesthetised first).
But, in general, good ideas. And I'm flabbergasted that Bill Stone would buy a one way ticket to the moon on what amounts to no more than an assumption that he'll get the materials to return.

[Venusian Broon]

Originally Posted by alchemist

But, in general, good ideas. And I'm flabbergasted that Bill Stone would buy a one way ticket to the moon on what amounts to no more than an assumption that he'll get the materials to return.

That's true gung-ho spirit! I read somewhere that a NASA scientist stated that he'd volunteer for a one-way mission to Mars to operate a station in orbit about the planet (for it eventually to become his orbiting coffin, unless he decided to impact the planet afterwards), but I don't know if that's just overenthusisam for his study of the planet and bravado because there is no way that NASA or anyone else would contemplate such a mission.

[nightdreamer]

Originally Posted by alchemist

And I'm flabbergasted that Bill Stone would buy a one way ticket to the moon on what amounts to no more than an assumption that he'll get the materials to return.

I had this same thought. I wouldn't buy that ticket unless I knew a rescue ship was standing by. Perhaps an Apollo 13-like event on the way could force him to improvise.

[wonkishere]

Originally Posted by alchemist

Hello wonk,
The basic premise is something I'd enjoy reading. However, I think the clean tubes are quite a departure from keeping the science. This isn't a problem for me, as I love space opera, but if you're priding yourself on accuracy it doesn't really work. There's nothing you've described that seems to slow or arrest metabolism. The cancer sufferer's tumour will continue to grow while in stasis and travellers will continue to age.
In my own opera-ish writing, I've a form of chemical stasis, using a chermical injected through the blood stream, in the CSF (fluid around the brain and spinal cord) and they're floating in it too. Theoretically, it preserves tissue (they're anaesthetised first).
But, in general, good ideas. And I'm flabbergasted that Bill Stone would buy a one way ticket to the moon on what amounts to no more than an assumption that he'll get the materials to return.

Well I appreciate the feedback, but current science indicates that something like that can work. There is a huge correlation between what you eat and how likely you are to develop cancer. And lately, simply ingesting lutein is shown to help cut the size of an existing tumor. The idea in this case is that by completely controlling the nutrients and proteins that go into the body, they can eliminate those things which cause the development of cancer. They'd have to work on it for awhile, but a tumor is basically uncontrolled growth of a neoplasm, and the theory is that if you control what goes into the body completely you can determine exactly what makes the tumor bigger, and exactly what makes it smaller.
As far as not slowing metabolism, I'm not too sure why you'd say that. I can slow my metabolism today by changing what I eat, and I can track the difference. And I can speed it up by exercising. In this tube, I could be feeding them anything. Why could I not give them a combination of nutrients or drugs that would slow down their metabolism? I really have no idea why you don't think that could happen. They could be consuming just about any substance at that point.

[wonkishere]

Originally Posted by nightdreamer

I had this same thought. I wouldn't buy that ticket unless I knew a rescue ship was standing by. Perhaps an Apollo 13-like event on the way could force him to improvise.

I think your missing the point. There doesn't appear to be any other way to do it, now or in the near future. And an awful lot of the big discoveries on Earth were made by people taking similar risks. He isn't throwing caution to the wind for the heck of it. He wants to do it, because he wants to achieve the goal of enabling real space exploration again, taking us not only to the Moon will beyond it. That's why he'd take the risk.

[wonkishere]

Originally Posted by Venusian Broon

Wonkisphere

Good to see that you are thinking through everything. It really helps the narrative to have everything 'joined up' and logical.

Your book sounds a bit like Kim Stanley Robinsons Mars trilogy (Red/Green/Blue) - a near-future look at the the terraforming of Mars. Have you read them? What would you say that your unique angle on this subject will be?

No I haven't read it, but now that you've mentioned it I'll check it out.
Right now I'm describing some of the science but it's not really what the book is about.

The terraforming of Mars is what they want to do, but they never actually get there. Their first problem is that China is expanding into Space as well, and early in the book there is a massive accident where a Chinese ship impacts with a private ship, and it leads to a military conflict.
More important then that, a series of ecological disasters have happened on Earth, and the population has slowly contaminated the water and food with toxins.

The irony is that the water and food that they eat up in space was sent up twenty years earlier and they've been constantly cleaning it. So now the people in space have clean water and food. But the people on Earth do not. It's contaminated, and it's leading to riots and wars.

[wonkishere]

Originally Posted by Venusian Broon

That's true gung-ho spirit! I read somewhere that a NASA scientist stated that he'd volunteer for a one-way mission to Mars to operate a station in orbit about the planet (for it eventually to become his orbiting coffin, unless he decided to impact the planet afterwards), but I don't know if that's just overenthusisam for his study of the planet and bravado because there is no way that NASA or anyone else would contemplate such a mission.

Keep in mind that as you leave Earth, the radiation count goes up massively, and they haven't found a way to really protect people from all the radiation that they'd receive when they completely leave Earth behind and go into deep space. Earth's magnetic field blocks a great deal of radiation, and as you move further away you lose a lot of that protection.
The astronauts who are talking about going on a trip to Mars believe that they would almost inevitable get cancer in the years afterward. And I saw one give an interview who passionately wanted to go despite that, and he would jump on board a ship tomorrow if he had the option.
Going on one way suicide trip isn't that far from that.

[Venusian Broon]

Originally Posted by wonkishere

No I haven't read it, but now that you've mentioned it I'll check it out.
The terraforming of Mars is what they want to do, but they never actually get there.

For a brief second I thought you might be going into those books territories, but I see you've got a completely different spin from where I thought it was going.

Oddly enough, from memory, I believe KSR's characters cure cancer as well. But on the surface of Mars. Can't remember how!

[alchemist]

Originally Posted by wonkishere

Well I appreciate the feedback, but current science indicates that something like that can work. There is a huge correlation between what you eat and how likely you are to develop cancer. And lately, simply ingesting lutein is shown to help cut the size of an existing tumor. The idea in this case is that by completely controlling the nutrients and proteins that go into the body, they can eliminate those things which cause the development of cancer. They'd have to work on it for awhile, but a tumor is basically uncontrolled growth of a neoplasm, and the theory is that if you control what goes into the body completely you can determine exactly what makes the tumor bigger, and exactly what makes it smaller.

There's a long way to go yet before science could nail down every single contributory factor to an individual tumour e.g. knowing that red meat contributes to the risk of colonic cancer on an epidemiological level doesn't mean that an individual can avoid it by avoiding red meat. Controlling exactly what nutrients go in and monitoring what comes out is unlikely to impact on a majority of tumours -- you need to target them more aggressively.
I can see the rationale in putting someone into stasis to stop a tumour growing, but it would have to be true stasis, where every bodily process is stopped. Just slow it down and the tumour will keep taking resources at the expense of the body.

As far as not slowing metabolism, I'm not too sure why you'd say that. I can slow my metabolism today by changing what I eat, and I can track the difference. And I can speed it up by exercising. In this tube, I could be feeding them anything. Why could I not give them a combination of nutrients or drugs that would slow down their metabolism? I really have no idea why you don't think that could happen. They could be consuming just about any substance at that point

I probably didn't express myself well there. You can speed or slow your metabolism, but if you want stasis for a decades-long journey, you'll have to stop it. You'll have to stop ageing too. Looking at your OP again, I see you're talking about travel within the solar system and not outside, so i may have been shooting ahead.

[wonkishere]

Originally Posted by alchemist

There's a long way to go yet before science could nail down every single contributory factor to an individual tumour e.g. knowing that red meat contributes to the risk of colonic cancer on an epidemiological level doesn't mean that an individual can avoid it by avoiding red meat. Controlling exactly what nutrients go in and monitoring what comes out is unlikely to impact on a majority of tumours -- you need to target them more aggressively.
I can see the rationale in putting someone into stasis to stop a tumour growing, but it would have to be true stasis, where every bodily process is stopped. Just slow it down and the tumour will keep taking resources at the expense of the body.

Yeah... this is a book of science fiction and we are moving ahead in time. They have done more to figure out what leads to what. It seems logical that if you controlled every single thing that a person eats, drinks, or breaths, and controlled every other body process, you could eventually learn what does and doesn't contribute to tumors, and turn off the process which causes the tumor. Saying that isn't event adventurous scientifically speaking. They are already saying that.
The correlation between what people eat and cancer is massive, and if I can limit the size of a tumor based on what someone eats now over a period of months, it seems reasonable that fifty years from now I could feed someone something that would remove the tumor. What your saying is in fact, contradicted by today's science. There is very strong evidence that what a person takes into their body is what causes a tumor to begin, nor not begin in the first place, and they've gotten pretty specific about what sort of substances those are. Right now, they give people advice on what to eat to deal with their already existing tumor. And right now people are doing research on what you can give someone to reduce a tumor.
If I said we gave them drugs instead of nutrients, would you have shot at the idea then?

Once again, the idea is that you are controlling every single thing that happens to the body when you put them in this tube, it's a clean room environment. What they eat, drink, breathe... anything they excrete can be measured.
You could do a lot with that. One of things that makes experiments difficult these days is that they give someone a pill each day for ninety days, and he leaves. Different people have different reactions, and they need to figure out why. But it's hard to know all the different things those people did in ninety days. What they ate, where they went and so on.
But if they were in a tube, you just eliminated all of those factors and you can study the process very objectively.

I probably didn't express myself well there. You can speed or slow your metabolism, but if you want stasis for a decades-long journey, you'll have to stop it. You'll have to stop ageing too. Looking at your OP again, I see you're talking about travel within the solar system and not outside, so i may have been shooting ahead.

I'm not stopping their metabolism, and there is more going on then slowing down the metabolism. They are controlling everying that goes in and out of the body and trying to maximize regeneration.
If I said we were giving them lots of chemicals instead of nutrients, would you think that made sense?

Anyway... It's not stasis. I am specifically not doing that. I'm not suggesting that it truly makes them younger, but it improves regeneration and makes them seem younger, at least for awhile. Essentially, in it's current form it does not allow them to live forever, but it will allow them to slow it down a great deal. Eventually they will die anyway, but it will give them a lot more time for exploration.

[wonkishere]

Originally Posted by Venusian Broon

For a brief second I thought you might be going into those books territories, but I see you've got a completely different spin from where I thought it was going.

Oddly enough, from memory, I believe KSR's characters cure cancer as well. But on the surface of Mars. Can't remember how!

The way I'm thinking of it, cancer hasn't been cured, there's just a whole lot less of it, because they've figured ways to deal with different types of cancer. It's kind of like the common cold, there are lots of different kinds of it. But the clean tube was made to deal with medical problems like that originally.
They used it to help people go on long trips through space later on.

[Esfires]

Originally Posted by wonkishere

The way I'm thinking of it, cancer hasn't been cured, there's just a whole lot less of it, because they've figured ways to deal with different types of cancer. It's kind of like the common cold, there are lots of different kinds of it. But the clean tube was made to deal with medical problems like that originally.
They used it to help people go on long trips through space later on.

"Cancer" will never be cured anyway, because cancer is not a single disease, it's a catch-all term for a host of diseases.