I have suspicions my Beta readers are not as objective as they say...

[Warren_Paul]

Originally Posted by Danrama

Misspelling and word structure should hopefully be ironed out in the copy edit phase I would have thought.

There are always mistakes you miss. It often takes a fresh pair of eyes - beta reader or editor - to catch them all.

Originally Posted by Danrama

My novel is too short. It is complete and polished at 92600 words and it is a fantasy novel. She never stressed that point to me. In fact no one has before the agents etc.

That's not too short, are agents telling you it is? In the US that is an acceptable size for debut authors. In the UK it could do with being bigger though.

From what I've seen, the upper limit for US agents is 120k, but the upper limit for UK is 140k. Of course there are exceptions made for brilliant writers, but around 100k is seen as the standard for debut authors. As long as it's over 90k, you're safe imo.

Of course if you're writing YA Fantasy, then 92k is perfect.

[SJAB]

Originally Posted by Danrama

Misspelling and word structure should hopefully be ironed out in the copy edit phase I would have thought.

In my opinion it rests with you to catch as many of the above as you can. If an agent requests the first ten pages then finds a pile of misspellings and bad structure, he is not goiing to read even the whole ten. You must double check and polish every aspect of your work. It is your CV, you won't get another chance with this novel.

There is the misnomer that publishers will sort out spelling, sentence construction etc and you don't have to worry about it. Yes, you do.

Something that worries me though is that my editor was so positive about my work and confidant in its success that I think she

missed a key point that is coming up now with my agent/publisher pitches/submissions. My novel is too short. It is complete and polished at 92600 words and it is a fantasy novel. She never stressed that point to me. In fact no one has before the agents etc.

Aim between 90,000 and 130,000 and you are in the ball park.

[Stephen Palmer]

Agreed. 92k is a bit light for a fantasy.

[Danrama]

Originally Posted by Warren_Paul

There are always mistakes you miss. It often takes a fresh pair of eyes - beta reader or editor - to catch them all.




That's not too short, are agents telling you it is? In the US that is an acceptable size for debut authors. In the UK it could do with being bigger though.

From what I've seen, the upper limit for US agents is 120k, but the upper limit for UK is 140k. Of course there are exceptions made for brilliant writers, but around 100k is seen as the standard for debut authors. As long as it's over 90k, you're safe imo.

Of course if you're writing YA Fantasy, then 92k is perfect.

I was told by an agent and a publishing house (neither of whom I will name) who suggested making it over 100k. It is aimed at an adult audience, I just cannot tone down the battles enough to make it YA :P
I have not been on this forum for a little while due to focusing on the launch of my first novel. I have come to terms with the length of the novel and my aim is to have the other two books at least sit in the same area of length. I am hoping to get some critical readers at some point for my second novel and even have some critique done from published authors on my first novel releasing in just under two weeks.

Yours Nervously,
Dan

[prizzley]

Originally Posted by Danrama

perhaps my 'polished' ms isn't as sparkling as my editor and my beta readers led me to believe.

I believe my beta readers have been honest, but I doubt they've told the whole truth. It's a difficult task, because every reader makes a subjective judgement and what works for one may not work for another. I think the beta reader should tell you their main problems without nit picking. It helps if they are writers themselves and not your nearest and dearest.

[Danrama]

Originally Posted by prizzley

I believe my beta readers have been honest, but I doubt they've told the whole truth. It's a difficult task, because every reader makes a subjective judgement and what works for one may not work for another. I think the beta reader should tell you their main problems without nit picking. It helps if they are writers themselves and not your nearest and dearest.

I try and stress to my beta readers that they are Beta readers and not editors. I find it hard when I get sentence corrections and even had one pull out her red pen (avoid teacher types) before handing it back. So I understand what you say when you mention nitpicking. I want pace/plot/character and world-building points primarily.

In the end my editor always seems to be the most objective and useful point of information on all these notes. Yet in saying that I have had some invaluable input from two specific readers but one has had a baby and the other is far too busy lately for my second novel... leaving me betaless!

[springs]

Oh, I dunno, some red penning is fine. Apparently my characters are like puffer fish these days due to my habit of round instead of around (so that's a control and find). And it's done wonders for my commas use. And eradicated the word thought from anything I write. The character interaction/plot stuff is invaluable, but I like the other stuff, too. It keeps me on my toes, make sure I edit it properly...

[Danrama]

Originally Posted by SJAB

In my opinion it rests with you to catch as many of the above as you can. If an agent requests the first ten pages then finds a pile of misspellings and bad structure, he is not goiing to read even the whole ten. You must double check and polish every aspect of your work. It is your CV, you won't get another chance with this novel.

There is the misnomer that publishers will sort out spelling, sentence construction etc and you don't have to worry about it. Yes, you do.

I do not trust myself enough to hand over work I have edited myself. I will always pay my editor to copy-edit my work and then I will proof read it again. Only after that will I forward the work elsewhere.

[Aminar]

I don't mind red penning, as long as they also look at plot, pacing, and character development. I have final say on what changes and what doesn't(Being unattached to any publishers at this point.) If I'm making lots of grammar or spelling mistakes I'd love to know. Just don't nitpick the dialogue. That can be as screwy as I want.

That said, finding the correct intelligence among my close friends is difficult. The ones that have it just get annoyed they haven't actually done any writing in forever(being your typical writers that never write.) In fact my best critic is my girlfriend. She knows good writing well enough to let me know when I'm off and is comfortable criticizing my work because she knows I don't take it personally.

[dwndrgn]

My writer friends use specific, accredited copy editors for grammar and error fixing but they solicit beta readers from people who read a great deal. Those people give them information on how the story reads to a disconnected reader. They can tell you that the chemistry between two of the characters doesn't work or the stuff that is supposed to be funny/creepy/exciting isn't. They can also point out things that don't fit or just things that seem odd.

Your beta readers should be READERS. People who do it for fun and enjoyment and like to do it. These are the people who would eventually be buyers - you want their opinions on whether your story is coming out the way you expect it to.

I've done beta reading in the past and while I'll find and comment on the odd grammar error or word choice issue - the main things they ask me is "Does this work?" "Did you enjoy it?" "What parts didn't work?" "Did you find X funny/creepy/adventurous?"

Best of luck! I hope your ms finds a home soon!

[Danrama]

Originally Posted by Aminar

In fact my best critic is my girlfriend. She knows good writing well enough to let me know when I'm off and is comfortable criticizing my work because she knows I don't take it personally.

Oh god...

I wish my girlfriend could read my work. She is a Finnish girl and despite her English being fantastic (on top of that she studies education at her university and that means she studies in English) she struggles to read novel length books in English. She tells me it just hurts her head

So I envy you!

Originally Posted by dwndrgn

Your beta readers should be READERS. People who do it for fun and enjoyment and like to do it. These are the people who would eventually be buyers - you want their opinions on whether your story is coming out the way you expect it to.

I've done beta reading in the past and while I'll find and comment on the odd grammar error or word choice issue - the main things they ask me is "Does this work?" "Did you enjoy it?" "What parts didn't work?" "Did you find X funny/creepy/adventurous?"

I agree with this in spades.

[Anne Lyle]

Originally Posted by Danrama

Something that worries me though is that my editor was so positive about my work and confidant in its success that I think she missed a key point that is coming up now with my agent/publisher pitches/submissions. My novel is too short. It is complete and polished at 92600 words and it is a fantasy novel. She never stressed that point to me. In fact no one has before the agents etc.

Does your editor work in the SFF market? If not, her opinions about word count are irrelevant - every genre has its own "marketable length", and as has been mentioned already, it even varies from one country to another!

Also, if you've paid someone to copyedit your work, she's not going to say it's not ready for submission

[chrispenycate]

Originally Posted by Danrama

I try and stress to my beta readers that they are Beta readers and not editors. I find it hard when I get sentence corrections and even had one pull out her red pen (avoid teacher types) before handing it back. So I understand what you say when you mention nitpicking. I want pace/plot/character and world-building points primarily.

In the end my editor always seems to be the most objective and useful point of information on all these notes. Yet in saying that I have had some invaluable input from two specific readers but one has had a baby and the other is far too busy lately for my second novel... leaving me betaless!

If you put something up for critique, make sure you mention you don't want the nitpicking done; others here will tell you about my use of red pen.

But I think you're wrong. Frequently I add question marks to my corrections, normally meaning "I wasn't quite sure what you intended to say, so chose this interpretation". The punctuation can completely change the meaning of a collection of words, so you need to feel the subtleties of the modifications, or how do you recognise what your editor's doing for you? As if you didn't have control of the language, and took someone else to choose the words for you.

Certainly, to err is human; in any consequent work there will be errors, requirements for proof reading. And, for quite a while to come, this checking is going to be biological, not electronic. But the author has to be in a position of 'No, this is what I wanted to say', and to do that (s)he has to have mastered the form. Otherwise we approach the situation of the:- 'I've got this superb idea, wouldn't you like to write it for me' wannabe.

Mayhap this situation is about to change; after all, there was a time when painters learnt about mixing pigments as a major part of their education. Technological aids impinge from every side, and I would not care to be without them. But for now I consider that control of word and silence is an essential for anyone who cares to write anything more complex than the instructions for opening a carton of milk.

Or perhaps a scientific exposé.

[Kylara]

I've always wanted to be a beta reader...mainly because I want to read it before everyone else :wink: but also because I find myself often very unsurprised by plot twists, and very angry at Stupid Moments required of both characters and readers and thought (in a rather big headed way) that had they given it to me to read at beta stage, I would have pointed it out, and then they could have fixed it, or told me to shove off, or I could happily say it passes my reading test and I find very little to fault, and I still could have gone - ooh I was a beta for that - when it appears pride of place on shelves

[Boneman]

Originally Posted by Kylara

I've always wanted to be a beta reader...mainly because I want to read it before everyone else :wink: but also because I find myself often very unsurprised by plot twists, and very angry at Stupid Moments required of both characters and readers and thought (in a rather big headed way) that had they given it to me to read at beta stage, I would have pointed it out, and then they could have fixed it, or told me to shove off, or I could happily say it passes my reading test and I find very little to fault, and I still could have gone - ooh I was a beta for that - when it appears pride of place on shelves

sits back and watches as Kylara disappears under an avalanche of work...