Waterboarding

[mosaix]

Just reading this article, never mind seeing the tapes, makes me feel very, very uncomfortable indeed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-17990955

I wonder if the proponents of waterboarding, who don't think it amounts to torture, would feel the same if it was carried out by al-Qaeda on American or British troops?

[geordie bob]

No doubt waterboarding is torture mate, however its a means to an end and I have no problem with our interogation lads using it, al-Qaeda dont get that inventive they just cut the lads head of online.

[Bowler1]

I'm stuck in a confused middle ground on this one. As a demoratic country I want to see rule of law applied to anyone we deal with. But when lives are at stake and information is key I'm more conflicted. Anything like this is a recruiting ground for al-Qaeda who don't have to uphold a rule of law. So what do we do, do we act or not. In this case we have and now its international news, did we save lives with the information gained, will the current publicity swell the ranks for future actions against us?

Do two wrongs make a right?

[Venusian Broon]

However we have no idea if torturing someone actually provides useful amounts of real information. Torturing people is however very easy to make people confess/tell you all sorts of stuff, but perhaps mainly things that the torturer wants to hear, and perhaps a lot of stuff that is false.

Just look at the 'confessions' of the Spanish inquisition or practically any witch trial in the 16-17th century.

[svalbard]

Originally Posted by Venusian Broon

However we have no idea if torturing someone actually provides useful amounts of real information. Torturing people is however very easy to make people confess/tell you all sorts of stuff, but perhaps mainly things that the torturer wants to hear, and perhaps a lot of stuff that is false.

Just look at the 'confessions' of the Spanish inquisition or practically any witch trial in the 16-17th century.

Good point. It should also be considered that those getting sluiced might not even be a member of Al-Queda or whatever terrorist group is acting up. Many of these 'terrorists' are people sold on for a price in very corrupt countries.

[Foxbat]

Nietzsche said it best - Beware when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster.

The CIA Counterterrorism chief doesn't think it amounts to torture and yet he destroyed the tapes.

Some people argue that waterboarding and other forms of torture will save lives, I think it will cost more lives in the long term. This is the very type of behaviour that will be used by the terrorists to recruit new members to their cause.

[Bowler1]

Nice quote.

[Moonbat]

What I find amazingly hypocritcal is the fact that we (the UK) are trying to deport Abu Qatada to Jordan to face terrorism charges but we can't because the European Court of Human rights says that the evidence to be used against him in court might have come from other people being tortured, yet the American Government (or is the military) are trying to try some people for 9/11 and have openly admitted to waterboarding them, at least one of them 187 times!!

I know the US and the UK are different countries but if we are both considered the 'west' fighting the war of terror then isn't that a little bit of double standards?

[Alex, The G and T]

Interesting that the article cited by Mosaix would come out at about the same time as the release of an analysis that suggests that waterboarding and "Enhanced Interrogation" are ineffective, even counterproductive: "It may have instead provided false leads and bogus intelligence."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...e-7685174.html

[Starbeast]

There is a man who is a real good interrigator from the middle-east (I can't remember his name), and he didn't use torture to get info, he merely talked to the prisoners and they told him a great deal info.

But he was pulled from that job, and then the many types of torture began, and the prisoners became silent. Then the public was lied to, the governments told us that torture was effective when it wasn't at all.

It turns out the military wanted to experiment with different methods of torture, and that was a big secret. But someone who witnessed the horrors talked and took pictures, then the whole world knew about Guantanamo Bay Prison. The new location is now kept super secret.

Apparently these military bigshots don't read about history. For example, many people were tortured to confess their sins and convert to Christianity during the time of the Spanish Inquisition. Victims said anything to stop the pain.

Torture only gets two results, a strong person would become silent, and a weak individual would say any thing.

[j. d. worthington]

Over and over again I have seen people from the intelligence community come out and say flatly that torture is one of the worst methods of obtaining accurate information. It does, on occasion, elicit what you need; but most often what you get is completely unuseful noise; false information given simply to make the torture stop -- telling interrogators what the detainee thinks they want to hear in order to end the process. And so on.

Incidentally, for those who don't know, Christopher Hitchens underwent a minor experience of the process to see for himself, at the request of Vanity Fair's editor. His conclusion was that it was indeed torture:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LPubUCJv58

[TheEndIsNigh]

Torture:

A useful method of passing false information to your enemies, whilst maintaining a semblance of credibility. Particularly useful if the 'torturee' resists the efforts of the torturer for as long as possible. Even better, if only partial information is obtained before the unfortunate 'messenger' is unable to withstand side effects of the interviewing techniques and pays the ultimate sacrifice.

In terms of resources, it requires very little capital investment and is most useful in situations where the enemy, lacking any intelligence, (in every sense of the phrase) is likely to believe any information so obtained.

[Peter Graham]

No doubt waterboarding is torture mate, however its a means to an end and I have no problem with our interogation lads using it, al-Qaeda dont get that inventive they just cut the lads head of online.

So there is no moral distinction between us and al-Qaeda, then? I'm not saying I disagree, but I bet that you do!

Regards,

Peter