2.06: Game of Thrones - The Old Gods And The New

[Keldaris]

Arya has a surprise visitor; Dany vows to take what is hers; Joffrey meets his subjects; Qhorin gives Jon a chance to prove himself.

[Warren_Paul]

Was a good episode. Don't read the following if you don't want to know how it compares to the book.







The dragon-napping is a surprise, I'm sitting here wondering if its an improvement or not. It was certainly a good way to end the episode, and lead Dany towards her next step in the story, but hmm... not how it happened.

I think it is good, of course somebody would try to steal the dragons. I'm really surprised GRRM never thought about that in Qarth, so yes, improvement.

[I, Brian]

Enjoyed it as usual - Theon feels so much more real to me in the series, and his conflict really stands out, especially the Ser Rodrick incident.

[Mouse]

That was grim, that bit! ^

I can't remember much else of what happened, other than Jon meeting Ygritte. Is that how they met in the books? I don't remember.

[I, Brian]

I think it more or less was - didn't think much of Jon's choice of place to sleep, but thought Ygritte's hip wriggles into Jon were very clever and worked well on film.

[wonkishere]

I love the show. But honestly... I don't believe for a second that Jon wouldn't have killed her with his history and background. I guess that's a little dark for a character we are supposed to empathize with but I don't buy it. He's seen enough death, and he knew where he was, and the potential consequences of not killing her.

[I, Brian]

Jon isn't a killer, though, and he's still immature. I don't think we've seen him kill a man to date, let alone execute a woman.

[wonkishere]

That's silly. He's spent a great part of his life waiting to be put on this wall, and then spent a great deal of time being mocked by the old guard who call him weak. They've spent years of time training him to kill with this sword, and he's been told repeatedly just how ugly and dangerous it is, and how likely he is to die out there.

And then they put him out there with her, and she's already pretty much indicated her willingness to signal their position to a bunch of people who are obviously going to kill him if they find him.

I think at this point, I'm with the veterans. If he isn't ready yet, I don't think he ever will be. The idea that it takes this long for someone to "learn how to kill" is a myth circulated by people who haven't been there. Put someone in fear for their life for awhile, and even someone from a sheltered lifestyle will kill in order to survive.

Put a guy in Iraq, give him basic training, put him in a situation where he's facing people who are ready to kill him, and guess what? He'll shoot them. He won't stutter and cry and aim his gun at the ground, or deliberately miss at the less second. I look at this sort of thing in these shows and I just laugh.

I might buy the 'She's just a woman' argument if she didn't seem blatantly hostile, and his position were not so obviously desperate. But frankly, women are people, and he probably would have been notified at some point in his years of training that 'mere women' are capable of killing and frequently do. They are human like the rest of us, and assuming that she won't slit his throat in his sleep is a strange assumption for a man in his position. I watched that scene, where he went to sleep next to her, and I lost any respect I ever had for the author. This is too stupid for words.

I expect it in a lot of shows, but Game of Thrones is supposed to be a dark realistic series. But even the dark series are silly and unrealistic about these things sometimes.

I imagine that later they will try to convince me that Jon will magically become an utter badass, but I'm afraid that will be a hard sell. Nobody takes this long to grow up.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by wonkishere

He's spent a great part of his life waiting to be put on this wall

Yes, but it was still a romantic fantasy to him. Qhorin was making a big point in this episode about that very thing, about how Jon does not understand the life of a brother beyond the wall yet.

Originally Posted by wonkishere

and then spent a great deal of time being mocked by the old guard who call him weak.

Which ties in nicely with Theon's scenes in the same episode, and how he's allowing himself to be goaded into actions he's not sure are right - and looking like he's making a pigs ear of it.

Originally Posted by wonkishere

I think at this point, I'm with the veterans. If he isn't ready yet, I don't think he ever will be.

You cynic, you. But this is exactly the point his trainer was making when Jon first went to the wall.

Originally Posted by wonkishere

Put someone in fear for their life for awhile, and even someone from a sheltered lifestyle will kill in order to survive.

Jon's not in a kill or be killed situation. He's skilled enough swordsman to best her in combat, then when she escapes and he catches her, is able to bind her. Not much of a threat so far, is she?


So far there's no suggestion of Jon being a dark badass, but instead being someone who cares for the wellbeing of others around him - part of which being the reason he was picked as Mormonth's steward in the first place, to allow him to hone this into leadsership skills.

[wonkishere]

Fair enough. I do love the show. I think one of the things which appeals to me about it is the way in which it shows dark political manipulation. You can sort of see the strategies which each side uses. Most of the time, the things which people do make sense for their character. And the dialogue is great too.

I think Tyrion is my favorite character in the series. He is an interesting character in that he can be a total bastard at certain moments, but he always remains sympathetic in my eyes.

[I, Brian]

Tyrion is great - loved his line about vicious kings and idiot kings, and then slapping Joffrey.

[C Of K]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Yes, but it was still a romantic fantasy to him. Qhorin was making a big point in this episode about that very thing, about how Jon does not understand the life of a brother beyond the wall yet.

Great point. First he romanticized the idea of going to the wall. When the romantic part of that idea was shattered, he romanticized the idea of going beyond the wall. I think with the show being out, it's easy to forget that in the books Jon is not a man. He's a boy of maybe 15 years by this point. Nothing against 15 year-olds, but Jon has been molded to understand what it means to execute a man who has broken his oaths. For such a young man, with his background, it's says a lot about his past training that he did not fall in in love with the act of killing said oath breakers.

There's nothing romantic about executing a woman, out in the wild, who has never sworn an oath in her life. He's still a bit too green to stomach that idea, which is quite believable to me. Besides, upon meeting her face to face, I'm sure he's quite taken with her. In the show he's a bit older than the books, which might make it seem like maybe he should be a little more practical, like his brothers, but Benjen said it best. Jon is no ranger.

[wonkishere]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Tyrion is great - loved his line about vicious kings and idiot kings, and then slapping Joffrey.

Yeah that was a great scene. And it's a measure of how angry he had to have been that he was willing to strike him. He couldn't really be certain of how far he could go without the King ordering his men to do something against him...