GRRM ruined a song of ice and fire by killing too many good characters

[Clansman]

Originally Posted by The Imp

With all due respect to the people who are complaining, and without wanting to sound snide, if you don't like the books, or if you don't like that your favorite character has been killed off, or if you don't like the amount of time between books, or GRRM's hat, or the color of Dany's eyes, etc. etc. etc stop reading the series.

To paraphrade Abraham Lincoln-

"You can please all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot please all the people all the time."

I am not a GRRM fanboy, but I love reading this series. This said, I think he could have done better in a number of aspects (series bloat to name one, though I believe he has this under control now). And no, I did not like the time between books. The delays in this series lie squarely at the feet of GRRM and no one else on this planet. But that is a topic for another thread. I am not going to stop reading.

Given the number of thoughtful posts you have made, Imp, I am quite frankly surprised at this one. Not cool at all.

Imp, I don't think people are complaining in this thread, they are offering up a work of art for legitimate criticism. Not everyone worships GRRM as the greatest writer of his generation as some do, and making an honest criticism is not complaining. It is pointing out something about the art that, from the perspective of the critic, is somehow lacking, or could be improved.

I am afraid that you did sound snide, especially with the bit about GRRM's hat and Dany's eyes, and despite your statement, the snideness seemed quite purposeful. Your tone was definitely exasperated, and disrespectful of those who would dare to criticize GRRM. We don't meet on this forum to praise the greatness of GRRM, but to talk about his books, and the point of this thread is to discuss a legitimate concern with the work, which has been echoed by several long-time members of the Chrons.

I would ask that you simply defend your position about the series, instead of telling people who don't share your view to stop reading it. That sort of statement is not helpful, nor does it encourage an open and honest debate about the merits of GRRM's writing. Regardless of one's opinion, A Song of Ice and Fire is one of the seminal works of modern fantasy, and if one cares about this genre as a whole, ASoIaF is a series that one should read to understand some of Fantasy's major trends.

Defend GRRM all you want, but kindly refrain from telling people whose opinions you don't share to, in effect, p*** off. I come here to enjoy the comments of other people and to respond, I hope, in a thoughtful manner that sparks a good debate. If a person cannot respond in a meaningful way to criticism they don't like in a polite and thoughtful manner, then they should not respond.

I will refrain from using the obvious Harry S. Truman quote.

[springs]

Regardless of one's opinion, A Song of Ice and Fire is one of the seminal works of modern fantasy, and if one cares about this genre as a whole, ASoIaF is a series that one should read to understand some of Fantasy's major trends.


I think there's a really interesting point there, Clansman, about why read it if it's not really your cup of tea. I'm trying to write a book someone might be interested enough to read. Preferably so much, they'd read another. And to do that, i kind of need to look at how others have done it. Hence GRRM is a bestseller in a related field to where I'm writing, and I picked it up partly to crib. And enjoyed it more than I expected, I'll openly admit.
This particular forum does have a fair subsection of aspiring writers and the beauty of it is all the subsections interlink and can support each other as part of the wider community.

Incidentally, I got a lot of crib notes.

[The Imp]

Originally Posted by Clansman

I am not a GRRM fanboy, but I love reading this series. This said, I think he could have done better in a number of aspects (series bloat to name one, though I believe he has this under control now). And no, I did not like the time between books. The delays in this series lie squarely at the feet of GRRM and no one else on this planet. But that is a topic for another thread. I am not going to stop reading.

Given the number of thoughtful posts you have made, Imp, I am quite frankly surprised at this one. Not cool at all.

Imp, I don't think people are complaining in this thread, they are offering up a work of art for legitimate criticism. Not everyone worships GRRM as the greatest writer of his generation as some do, and making an honest criticism is not complaining. It is pointing out something about the art that, from the perspective of the critic, is somehow lacking, or could be improved.

I am afraid that you did sound snide, especially with the bit about GRRM's hat and Dany's eyes, and despite your statement, the snideness seemed quite purposeful. Your tone was definitely exasperated, and disrespectful of those who would dare to criticize GRRM. We don't meet on this forum to praise the greatness of GRRM, but to talk about his books, and the point of this thread is to discuss a legitimate concern with the work, which has been echoed by several long-time members of the Chrons.

I would ask that you simply defend your position about the series, instead of telling people who don't share your view to stop reading it. That sort of statement is not helpful, nor does it encourage an open and honest debate about the merits of GRRM's writing. Regardless of one's opinion, A Song of Ice and Fire is one of the seminal works of modern fantasy, and if one cares about this genre as a whole, ASoIaF is a series that one should read to understand some of Fantasy's major trends.

Defend GRRM all you want, but kindly refrain from telling people whose opinions you don't share to, in effect, p*** off. I come here to enjoy the comments of other people and to respond, I hope, in a thoughtful manner that sparks a good debate. If a person cannot respond in a meaningful way to criticism they don't like in a polite and thoughtful manner, then they should not respond.

I will refrain from using the obvious Harry S. Truman quote.

I didn't insult anyone and I certainly didn't tell anyone to "piss off". I gave my view of the OP in a concise manner, and I didn't sugar-coat it. Maybe I''ve just gotten too sick of the da driven BS that permeates every aspect of our lives now, and as a result I'm not as patient as I once would have been or could have been when responded, but I stand by what I said. When a new poster comes to a board such as this one and their main point is this

Again, I was wrong. GRRM managed to kill Jory, Ser Rodrick, Maester Luwin, destroyed Winterfell, killed too many of the direwolves, killed Robb, Grey Wind and Catelyn, pulverized what remained of the northmen army and any chance the north had with it. Now, we are left with the Stark children and Jon for the rest of the series, if we still want to root for the Starks. And honestly, even if they win in the end, what of it? What will be left for them?

So there you have it. No reason to keep reading.

my question is immediately why bother going out of your way to come to this board to complain about a series that you're going to stop reading? There are boards out there devoted entirely to complaining about GRRM this isn't one of them.

I stated my opinion, something I'm entitled to do. I post here and on many other Song of Ice and Fire forums, and I've read countless posts written by people who disagreed with GRRM's writing style, habits, story sprawl, etc. I've never insulted anyone here or anyone else whom i didn't agree with, but again, my opinion is, if someone has given upon the series, why bother coming here? What's the agenda? Some might call it trolling.

And BTW, if you want to get riled up about something, how about the title of the thread which is a HUGE spoiler for any newbie that wanders in here.

[allmywires]

Originally Posted by The Imp

I stated my opinion, something I'm entitled to do.

And so have we, yet you made a post that, put simply, implied that we should kindly stop our conversation because of it.

You do have a point about the OP, and it is curious that they should come here just to post about this polarising topic, but for readers such as myself who come across nothing but glazed-eyed adulation for GRRM wherever they go, I thought it would be a place where I could air my own personal frustrations at the series.

[I, Brian]

I think it's testament to GRRM's writing that he can engage so many people with ASoFaI - both those who like it, and dislike it.

However, the complaints are ones we've already seen here at chronicles at various times, so there's nothing new there.

I would urge people to be a little more restrained when discussing these complaints, though - no need for anyone to feel offended, or defensive.

[The Imp]

Originally Posted by allmywires

And so have we, yet you made a post that, put simply, implied that we should kindly stop our conversation because of it.

You do have a point about the OP, and it is curious that they should come here just to post about this polarising topic, but for readers such as myself who come across nothing but glazed-eyed adulation for GRRM wherever they go, I thought it would be a place where I could air my own personal frustrations at the serious.

I never said that and if I cam across that way it wasn't my intent

I'll re-state my opinion. I'm not interested in talking about how TRW led to the OP feeling as if GRRM "ruined the series" for him/her. The majority of people who have read this series think that aSoS is the best of the 5 books, and I suspect that TRW is one of the things that contributes to that opinion. The OP disagrees. i disagree with the OP.

I'll leave it at that and not participate in this thread anymore.

[Eulalia]

I respectfully disagree that GRRM killed too many good characters. I find it refreshing, surprising, "truthful", well set up, and needful to the plot.

I respectfully point out that this series is inspired by the Wars of the Roses and includes many dark (and reasonalby invocative) historical scenarios. It is written by a conscientious objecter--to the Viet Nam war. I object to being labelled glaze eyed, (hardly) because I enjoy grey characters and the dark side of wars, because I see that as more complex, touching, satisfying and truthful.

It is a little like going for sushi, then, and complaining that the fish is raw! This series is dark. This series is nuanced. This series is informed by "real" history. If you want lighter fare, or Mary Sue characters--why read it, indeed. (and take a pass on biographies and politics) Now you know. The fish is raw. A lot of us like it that way. It is not a crime not to like it, however.

I also happen to like the prose, the poetic discriptions of setting, the character developments, the wit, the cliff hangers and even the easter eggs.

Not that I mind meringue sometimes. But if you want meringue or black and white characters, or relentlessly happy endings, you would be looking in the wrong place. The TV series, now, has some gratuitous sex to inform, titillate and move things along. If you don't like that kind of spice, well, don't watch that either. I don't understand why you would. What is wrong with that proposition?

[Ursa major]

I'm not sure we should be telling people not to read books; if they don't want to do so, they won't need anyone's encouragement. The reading of any book (or the watching of any TV show) is not a proto-cult that only permits the most devoted to breath the novel's name, let alone view the contents.

And we shouldn't be so defensive of what we like that we seek to chase off those who disagree. No work of art is perfect, particularly something as complex as a novel, let alone a series of very long books. There are things to like and dislike; our opinion of the books depends on the balance we see in them.


Now if the OP had come here and made a pronouncement that ASoIaF is rubbish - which they didn't - and gave no explanation of why they felt that way, that would be trolling. That the OP provided something we can discuss - and perhaps should be discussing - couldn't be further from that. (Let's face it, if this board only contained people more or less violently agreeing with each other, it would be a much poorer place. And very dull.)


So can we please return to the merits, or otherwise, of ASoIaF, and refrain from "discussing" other people posting here and what we think they ought to be doing.

[Warren_Paul]

Originally Posted by The Imp

I'll re-state my opinion. I'm not interested in talking about how TRW led to the OP feeling as if GRRM "ruined the series" for him/her. The majority of people who have read this series think that aSoS is the best of the 5 books, and I suspect that TRW is one of the things that contributes to that opinion. The OP disagrees. i disagree with the OP.

I'll leave it at that and not participate in this thread anymore.

I was suspicious of that first OP - it didn't sound constructive to me - hence my low-key sarcasm. But really, there are people who are going to love the books, and people who are going to hate them. Nothing wrong with falling into the latter, but people must be aware that if you do, you're unfortunately in the minority. So many people are going to take the opposite side of the fence that it may come across as being defensive and just bashing the guy who isn't a "GRRM fanboy". I don't think anyone intends to start a fight over it - I think.

My suggestion was the same as The Imp, if you don't like it, then don't read it. No point reading a story you are not enjoying, that's just torture. I would love to say it gets better, but considering the reason the OP was reading the books, I'm afraid for him/her it won't be getting better - so why read it? I believe the first post shows that the OP has already decided not to continue reading anyway.

[Tywin]

For the record, I do hate the hat that GRR Martin always seems to wear in his photos.

[Ursa major]

I don't mind the hat, but I've become so used to seeing only pictures with GRRM wearing it that it came as a bit of a surprise, at Eastercon, to see him not wearing it sometimes.

[HareBrain]

Originally Posted by Warren_Paul

if you don't like it, then don't read it. No point reading a story you are not enjoying, that's just torture.

But I think that giving up on a long story part-way through, one that you initially thought very highly of, is painful; and I think trying to work out what (if anything) went wrong, and whether others feel the same, is legitimate. Feelings of disappointment are bound to run higher than with a single one-off book that a reader thought they might enjoy and didn't.

(Not that I have given up on it yet, and I'll buy the next book on the day of its publication, albeit with reduced expectations. But I understand why some people have.)

[springs]

That's me in a nutshell, HB. I will buy the next one (I'll probably skim it again, but that's my choice as a reader), and see it to the end. And there are some scenes I'll read again, and say what did he do right there.... and hope to learn from it.
But I'll also ask where did he go wrong? In my perception, because that's possibly even more important....

[Warren_Paul]

Originally Posted by HareBrain

But I think that giving up on a long story part-way through, one that you initially thought very highly of, is painful; and I think trying to work out what (if anything) went wrong, and whether others feel the same, is legitimate. Feelings of disappointment are bound to run higher than with a single one-off book that a reader thought they might enjoy and didn't.

(Not that I have given up on it yet, and I'll buy the next book on the day of its publication, albeit with reduced expectations. But I understand why some people have.)

If you're still reading, then there must be something you enjoy about it that keeps you going?

I agree with what you're saying, but I also wonder when does it change from trying to figure out what went wrong to just complaining about why you don't like it? And that's not directed at you HB - Clearly the majority of people are discussing the good and bad points, and that's cool.

EDIT: my point was that if somebody is just complaining about it, then I don't think it's the book for them.

[The Imp]

Could the name of this thread be changed by a mod please, so someone new doesn't get way more information than they need?