Florida Neighbourhood Watch Gunman Charged

[mosaix]

The Florida neighbourhood watch volunteer who shot the unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin has been charged with second-degree murder.

Guilty or not, a six week delay between the offence and the charge seems a strange way for a justice system to work.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-17684429

[Ursa major]

The Sunday before last (I think), I was watching the BBC's Parliament channel, which seems to carry a live feed from a Washington-based channel that covers politics (and has party-based phone-ins. They were discussing the "stand your ground" law, including the attempts to bring it in at the federal level (and also, I think, federal rules about concealed weapons) which would force all states to allow this.

One interesting (and, I thought, frightening) aspect was that the person supporting the "stand your ground" law was arguing on the basis that when an armed criminal was going about their nefarious business, wouldn't it be great if the the great mass of the public could draw their weapons and stop the criminal by force of arms. I understand crossfire is already a problem when the police (or gangs) are involved in shooting matches; goodness knows what would happen if significant numbers of the public were to join in.

[PTeppic]

Originally Posted by mosaix

Guilty or not, a six week delay between the offence and the charge seems a strange way for a justice system to work.

I don't know the case, and IANAL, but don't the prosecutors (i.e. state) need to interview witnesses, gather forensics, in short build a case of evidence, as well as discussing any legal precedent to sufficient detail, before charging?

I'm guessing in this case the suspect denied the charge. Which means they have to be able to "prove" he did it.

[hopewrites]

Originally Posted by Ursa major

goodness knows what would happen if significant numbers of the public were to join in.

you mean life isnt like Anime*?


*I reference the episode of Trigun where the whole town has guns and therefor needs no law enforcement, of course it took a man without a gun but willing to stand up as though he had one to remind them to stand up for themselves, but that's what makes it a good story.

[Moonbat]

From what I have read over the last month and half:

The suspect - Mr Zimmerman was arrested at the time of the shooting, but claimed it was self defense and cited the 'stand your ground' law, he was then released without charge. What followed was 6 weeks of protests across America and eventually the lawyer for the Martin family has managed to get a prosecuter to bring the case against Mr Zimmerman for which he has now been arrested and charged with 2nd degree murder.
It is a very interesting case with plenty of racist undertones, but I find the stand your ground law quite an odd one. I suppose it makes sense that if someone is threatening your life then you can take theirs to protect yourself, but it does leave things open to abuse, like this case. Mr Zimmerman claimed (or should that be alleged) that Trayvon Martin was pummeling his head ito the pavement and that is why he shot him, but without witnesses it is just one man's word against that of a corpse.
The uproar is due to the fact that the victim was unarmed and black and yet the police did not seem to treat his death as any sort of crime, they simply let the suspect claim it was self defense and then let him go. There was no doubt that Mr Zimmerman shot Mr Martin but the claim of self defense with regards to the stand your ground law is what has caused all the problems.

[Bowler1]

There is a little bit more to the case. The suspect was on the phone to the police before the shooting. The police instructed him not to keep following the kid, Mr Zimmerman did not follow police instructions and soon after started shooting.

This is what bugs me about the whole thing, if police instructions were followed, this kid would be alive. That to me, says criminal charges straight off.

[Lilmizflashythang]

Originally Posted by Bowler1

There is a little bit more to the case. The suspect was on the phone to the police before the shooting. The police instructed him not to keep following the kid, Mr Zimmerman did not follow police instructions and soon after started shooting.

This is what bugs me about the whole thing, if police instructions were followed, this kid would be alive. That to me, says criminal charges straight off.

I don't know how it works in England, but here in the States 911 doesn't hook you to the exact department you need. You talk to a dispatcher, not the police, paramedics, or fire department. The dispatcher sends the proper department to your location.

And Zimmerman did return to his vehicle. I don't know the ins and outs of the shooting, but I do know that Zimmerman is being crucified for being a racist white man, when he is a light hispanic.

[Bowler1]

Nothing is ever straight forward I agree, but the instructions from the dispatcher (you are correct) was to stop following the kid and wait for the police to arrive - thats fairly clear instructions to me.

I think it is as much, the police not charging the guy after the shooting as well.

You have some interesting gun laws over there Lilmizflashythang, what is the concensus view in Texas, where I'm sure guns are allowed?

[mosaix]

Originally Posted by Bowler1

I think it is as much, the police not charging the guy after the shooting as well.

The actual shooting is probably going to be the subject of a trial and, no doubt we will learn more. I really started the thread as a comment on the length of time it took for the decision to charge the man.

I suppose public opinion and politics is bound to play a part much as we like to think that it doesn't. And that is probably true in the UK as well.

[Moonbat]

The six weeks it took to charge the man is a long time, but what we will never know is: Would he have been charged if there hadn't been such an outrage among people from Florida and all across the US?
I can't say for certain, no he would have got off, but it does seem that all the protesting did have a bearing on the prosecution and maybe changed things.

I was watching a Penn&Teller thing on youtube, firstly they were talking about creationism and how crazy it is, but then I watched another one about gun control, basically they are against it as they say 'criminals flout the law and carry guns, so it is safer if law abiding citizens carry them too.' As a Brit with little or no experience with firearms I find this a bit crazy, but then there wa sa woman on who had left her gun in the car (as she was required to do so) and gone into a restaurant with her parents, a man entered and started shooting people, he killed both her parents, she said that although her having a gun might not have changed anything or saved her Dad it certainly would have altered the odds.

[Bowler1]

Criminals just get bigger guns.

Thats the problem!

[PTeppic]

Reading some coverage here in the Uk, the daft thing seems to be the burden of proof: the prosecution need to "prove" that Zimmerman was deliberately rascist, not that he shot Martin. Zimmerman himself just has to "prove" self-defence.

It could well mean Zimmerman is found innocent, but the legislators realise how bad their law is...

[pyan]

Originally Posted by PTeppic

Zimmerman himself just has to "prove" self-defence.

And if the rule in the USA is "Reasonable doubt", and there doesn't seem to be any witnesses that actually saw anything, just heard shouting, it could be a difficult thing to disprove. Perhaps that's why there was no prosecution in the first place, before all the furor over that decision...

[j. d. worthington]

Mmmm... I've heard at least one of the recordings (from a neighbor's 911 call) of the shouts for help, culminating in the shot... I could be wrong, but it by no means sounds like a 28-year-old, but rather a very frightened teenager screaming for help, repeatedly. To me, that was a rather damning piece of evidence....

[Bowler1]

As per above, so much has come out on the media and I don't think Zimmerman is innocent. I accept he got carried away in the moment, but he took a life and that is a very final act. If he'd left the kid alone, he would have walked home with his sweets and that would have been it.

Is crime that bad, in that area, that neighbours need to arm themselves and patrol the streets? Or is it just some over reaction by some want to be cop?

It will be interesting to see due process in this case, there has to be some jail time dished out!