Writing Workshop Group - TOEGTW Exercise Discussion: Please Read First Post

[Glen]

Right, I've posted my homework!

Thanks Vertigo for putting this whole thing together. It really helps to make sure I do the exercises. Otherwise I think I would just have skipped these when reading the book. Also, it is a good book. Quite pacey - despite the subject matter!

I'm already finding the discussion thread a bit daunting though. Very long posts! I did some on-line education last year and I thought I would share some of the things we did there to see if they help us with this exercise. See what you think:

• Short posts, no more than 200 wds. We lost credit for going over, it made for a pacey conversation, and prevented info-dumping - i.e. no need to cover everything yourself - let someone else pick up the thread and take it to the next step
• threads for each topic, e.g. we might have a thread for each exercise, or each chapter, that way we could do things in bite-size chunks.
• Largish groups of about a dozen, that way if someone is off-line due to illness, malaise, vacation, brain-fade etc the conversation still goes on.
• Lots of questions and prompting for others thoughts. Makes for short posts and encourages flow. The course strongly emphasised "dialogue" over debate or discussion.

[Glen]

It was interesting to note the different transitional devices used in the rewrites of the 13B exercise.

Springs using link words (are these conjunctive adverbs? p. 101): Some, Alternatively, Now, Therefore, Consequently.

Whereas Vertigo set up a master plan! (p. 98). I think moonbat and myself have done the same.

It seems to make a difference to how the paras read. Springs, with the links seems conversational and accessible, as if one student is explaining to another. Whereas, in contrast, mine sounds like a pompous college prospectus. :0)

[springs]

Which means your's is best suited to the purpose, and this is where I need to take some learning from; suiting the writing to the subject, instead of telling it all like a story.

Choccoweebie; I thought your paragraph was good, it dealt with a lot of material, but read smoothly.

Already from this post, I'm seeing that I'm obsessed with smoothness over information giving, and need to improve on combining the two. Good call, this, Vertigo.

[Glen]

Originally Posted by springs1971

Which means your's is best suited to the purpose...

Well it depends on what you think the purpose is. I thought yours read better, and would work better on a college prospectus because of its tone. Whereas I thought mine was the kind of para that folk skip over, and was thinking of how I might start using links instead of setting the scene first.

The learning for me is that different types of para unity perhaps offer different tones that we can use as needed.

[Abernovo]

A few quick notes on the exercises. I have gone over 200 words on this, Glen, but I think it might be a good goal to set myself in the future.

Vertigo

Ch12. It read well, flowing with good links. The only sentence I wondered about was the final example, which I felt stood a little bit more on its own.

Ch13. I thought the conjunctions worked well. However, I think this is a more difficult piece to jduge (if that's the right word). We're correcting another's work but, I suspect, coming up with variations on a theme when it comes to making it flow.

Springs

Ch12. It works as a concise overview of the politics in Northern Ireland and the sentences followed on from each other well.

Ch13. Again, very good linking of the sentences. I liked the conversational tone, for example in the midterm sentence, beginning it with 'now'.

Moonbat

Ch12. It flowed really well and I thought the rhetorical sentences at the end made for a good conlcusion to lead onto further study, were this a real sccenario.

Ch13. This too flowed well, improving on the original, but keeping its flavour.

Chocco

Ch12. It moved easily from sentence to sentence and I liked the structure. Perhaps, as you said, a little unwieldy in length, but I never lost my way, so maybe not.

On a personal note, I studied environmental economics. We might have to chat some day.

Glen

Ch12. I really liked how you opened the paragraph with pace and then kept it flowing from there. The only thing I would ask is did you write out a plan? I think this exercise works for me, partly as it demonstrates how we come at things in different ways, so I'd be interested to see how you planned it. But, that's just my own point of view.

Ch13. Breaking the tests into two types worked well.

A final note. As I said above, I like how this shows different methods to achieve the same goal. As to Springs and Glen, I thought you both had an easy conversational feel. I know my writing, fiction and reports (which have been my bread and butter), can be a little staid. I could do with emulating your conversational style sometimes, probably your pace as well, Glen.

[Glen]

Originally Posted by Abernovo

...did you write out a plan?

No plan. I felt a bit remiss when I saw everyone else had planned :0(

In fact reading through the posted exercises and discussion I've realised I didn't meet the exercise critieria. It asks for ten sentences - I only used six. I got the idea of using the self-referential subject and just launched into it.

I was impressed with your plan and how it translated into the para. It made me think about how the plan is a useful technique for sketching out how to write.

It reminded me of another technique (I forget the source) which I think the author called "writing down the page" or some such. Just spillling thoughts, words, sense impressions, ideas etc onto the page and using that as a framework for your writing. The power is in separating the structure from the syntax - allowing your brain to focus on one thing at a time.

[Vertigo]

Moonbat re my ch13 exercise: you are quite right about the positioning of the linking words and in particular the last sentences would maybe have been better written as:
"Therefore they must work harder preparing for these finals."
Or maybe put the link emphasis onto the finals instead of the students:
"These finals, therefore, require hard preparatory work from them." or "...from the students."

However elsewhere in the paragraph my main linking mechanism (as Glen noted) was the 'master plan':

Originally Posted by Vertigo

...including quizzes, pop quizzes and examinations; both midterm and final.
Qizzes deal...
Pop quizzes are...
Examinations are...
The midterm...
The final...

As Glen also observed the different techniques definitely result in a different tone of voice. This plan approach is certainly more formal whereas the linking words approach is more informal. Which is probably one reason why the latter reads a little easier (another being that I simply haven't made it flow better ).

Glen, on your thoughts:

I think it would be very difficult to limit the size of posts here because we are inevitably doing a lot of quoting and sometimes of largeish (good word that) passages. Maybe try and keep the posts, less quotes, below 200. I've probably blown that already!

Threads for each topic is what I would have preferred however I think that could look a little like we are trying to take over the Workshop sub-forum Buhhaha! If we end up with a separate sub-form for this kind of workshop then I think that might be a good approach.

Larger groups I'm not so sure about. They will generate more exercises and more reviews. Imagine 12 people submit 12 exercises and then all 12 posts reviews of 11 exercises each.

I shall try and take a look at the new exercises that have been posted shortly.

Oh by the way Springs, what's with the apostrophe in "your's" you do l ike those apostrophes don't you!

[springs]

Oh, Chrispy is going to have so much fun reading mine when we get to the apostrophe unit. I will weep buckets at the effort of grasping posessive apostrophes in public.... I think they are always going to be my blind spot but I'm still working at it. I think I meant your's as in yours is, but that would be yours's, which is, I'm sure complete gobbledegook.

[Vertigo]

Originally Posted by Glen

It reminded me of another technique (I forget the source) which I think the author called "writing down the page" or some such. Just spillling thoughts, words, sense impressions, ideas etc onto the page and using that as a framework for your writing. The power is in separating the structure from the syntax - allowing your brain to focus on one thing at a time.

He does talk about a similar technique earlier in the book in ch5 pg25 "Finding Topics by Free Writing or Brainstorming". Though as the title suggests he is using it to find topics rather than structure. I actually tried something similar to this recently using a dictaphone and just blabbing away into it. A bit chaotic but it did result in phrases and sentences that were possibly more natural than I might otherwise have written them.

Note: I'm not worrying too much about double posting in these threads. Apart from anything else it helps break up the mammoth posts!

[Vertigo]

Originally Posted by springs1971

Oh, Chrispy is going to have so much fun reading mine when we get to the apostrophe unit. I will weep buckets at the effort of grasping posessive apostrophes in public.... I think they are always going to be my blind spot but I'm still working at it. I think I meant your's as in yours is, but that would be yours's, which is, I'm sure complete gobbledegook.

Hehe - I knew you'd love that one Springs! Here:

Your's
Though you may see your's written even by native speakers, it is incorrect. Yours should never have an apostrophe.

The Bottom Line
The idea that yours needs an apostrophe comes out of the fact that on virtually every other word, 's indicates possession, so English speakers sometimes think yours should be spelled your's. However, this is always incorrect - yours is the only correct spelling.

By the way did anyone notice that I completely forgot The Judge's excellent advice and created this thread with discussion in the title instead of something like review! But never mind I think this is where most of the discussion is likely to take place.

[TacticalLoco]

I'm more than a little relived to see that everyone has done something silightly different, as some of you know I'm using a different edition of the book so assignments may vary a little. Anyway I got my chap 12 work up and will get 13 up soon.

I think you all have done well and so have nothing to add to the crits so far. I just need to keep playing catch up at the point.

[Vertigo]

To continue my reviews:

Choccoweeble ch12

As you said yourself; possibly a little long. But, like Aber, I didn’t get lost, so it was clearly well structured; each point leading on naturally from the previous one. Possibly it would have been better to just have one sentence on the methods and then more detail could have provided in following paragraphs and those paragraphs introduced in the same way you introduced your sentences; Firstly, secondly etc.. The same criticism as Moonbat put to me might also be applicable, in that some linking words are buried in their sentence. So, for example: “The only way of breaking out of this cycle is economic reform…” could be “This cycle can only be broken through economic reform…”

Glen ch12
I liked the pace of yours Glen (and the subject ) however I thought it maybe lacked linking words (which of course you could justifiably argue was the topic of the next chapter anyway!). After the intro you make three major points beginning with “To create…”, “To attract…” and “Each sentence…”. Maybe the last of these is somewhat different but they might have benefited from the master plan approach to introduce them.

TacticalLoco ch12
I like this, it was concise and informative. My only real grumble was the sentence starting “The Govenor and state Republicans….” That ‘state’ doesn’t seem right there and as the preceding point began with “The Democrats…”, I think it would work better as “The Republicans and the state Govenor…” or maybe “The Republicans, along with the state Govenor,…” Placing “The Republicans” at the front pairs it better with the earlier point.


Glen Ch13
Strangely in this example you shifted from your usual snappy style to a rather more long winded one. Of course we are having to work with someone else’s words here which makes it tough, but you actually seemed to introduce extra words. For instance “…arrange makeup sessions to take the quiz.

Abernovo ch13
I thought this worked quite well with a couple of ‘buts’. Your third sentence beginning “One type,” didn’t feel quite right somehow. Maybe just punctuation: “One type, the pop quiz, is…” But there is also an ambiguity there: one type of quiz or test? Also in the “It is important” sentence (which I actually found the most jarring in the piece’s original form) I think placing ‘therefore’ at the beginning of the sentence makes it flow a little better.

Sorry, over 200 again. It will be kind of difficult to keep to that limit unless I do each review as a separate post.

[Abernovo]

Thanks, Vertigo. I was referring to types of quiz, as I see it as a pop quiz. I can see how that could be ambiguous. Something to work on.

'Therefore.' Aargh! I thought about using it, but I use the word too much sometimes and I decided against it in this case. I should have trusted my instincts.

[Vertigo]

Originally Posted by Abernovo

Thanks, Vertigo. I was referring to types of quiz, as I see it as a pop quiz. I can see how that could be ambiguous. Something to work on.

'Therefore.' Aargh! I thought about using it, but I use the word too much sometimes and I decided against it in this case. I should have trusted my instincts.

I don't think it was a major ambiguity because, as you say, it is very quickly cleared up by 'pop quizzes'.

Actually you did use 'therefore' it was just the position I was commenting on, I would have put it at the front rather than the middle of the sentence. I use 'therefore' rather a lot myself. Here's a wiki page on some common conjunctive adverbs which has a couple of alternatives http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conjunctive_adverb

[Glen]

Originally Posted by Vertigo

...you actually seemed to introduce extra words…

I did. The constraint of trying to retain the original words meant, for me, that I had to introduce additional words to make it clear. I would have preferred to assign the original piece to the bin, and start afresh.

Please don't worry about the 200 wd thing. I was just sharing some ideas I'd worked with before. You're right. I don't think they would work here.