Describing race.

[allmywires]

How do you do it? Do you apply the 'assume white unless stated otherwise' rule, or do you make it explicit for every character? Is it even important that it's stipulated at all?

I thought it would be a good question to ask because there's been a lot of chinwagging about the Hunger Games film and how Katniss isn't 'dark' enough. Would it matter to you if someone interpreted your character as a different race than you intended?

[Interference]

It's a question I've wondered about.

I'm locked into being better able to describe the actions and cultural influences of my own race and so would feel, perhaps, a little self conscious about overtly making a POV character of a different race. I feel it's best not to mention it and allow, if possible, the reader to supply their own imagery.

However if the day came that my writings were to be interpreted for the screen, I'd revel in the variety that might be available through casting and the input from the actors who might come from another race taking control of their characters' actions and motivations.

[TheDustyZebra]

I think it's initially startling when you see a character in a movie who doesn't look at all the same as they did in the book, whether it's race or just hair coloring or something, but if the actors are good, they make the roles their own and soon you can't see it any other way.

For example, one of my favorite movies is the Kenneth Branagh version of Much Ado About Nothing, and it was rather alarming to see that the Prince was Denzel Washington -- but of course, it's Denzel Washington, so it wasn't long before it was perfectly his role and nobody else's.

Another one is Ford Prefect -- but again, it was immediately right. It had never occurred to me that Ford Prefect might be black, but apparently he was.

It really bothered me that Draco Malfoy was pale and blond, but when I went back to look in the books, it turned out that he had been that way all along and I had just missed it. So even if you describe something very clearly in your book, some people just won't notice, and will still insist on seeing something different. Or maybe it's just me!

I think if the race of the character doesn't specifically matter to the story, it's not even something to point out -- that way, everybody can see what they want. If it does matter, then the movie should stick to that.

[allmywires]

Originally Posted by Interference

I'm locked into being better able to describe the actions and cultural influences of my own race and so would feel, perhaps, a little self conscious about overtly making a POV character of a different race. I feel it's best not to mention it and allow, if possible, the reader to supply their own imagery.

My problem exactly. In my WIP, I feel like it's necessary to point out that the different civs from my primary characters are different races to them: either black or at least mixed. It feels a bit tired pointing it out every time they meet new people in different locales, but I do feel that it's important for those characters' identities.

Originally Posted by TheDustyZebra

It really bothered me that Draco Malfoy was pale and blond, but when I went back to look in the books, it turned out that he had been that way all along and I had just missed it.

Not a small thing to miss there

[James Coote]

Originally Posted by allmywires

My problem exactly. In my WIP, I feel like it's necessary to point out that the different civs from my primary characters are different races to them: either black or at least mixed. It feels a bit tired pointing it out every time they meet new people in different locales, but I do feel that it's important for those characters' identities.

The actual colour of the skin or hair is probably not going to make a difference (unless they're camouflaged). Race is also about build and facial features and lots of other things

You can still talk in general terms or ones that don't imply specific racial features, such as hair style, clothes, body language if you don't want to tackle the issue head on

[RJM Corbet]

My people don't have hair, or skin colour, and they've got funny alien ridges on their heads ... makes description more challenging. But hair/eye colour descriptions are shallow anyway ...

[Gumboot]

Race is a highly questionable distinction anyway. I'll describe the physical characteristics of the character, and if they deviate significantly from the POV character I'll go into more detail.

I tend to find ethnic distinctions much more important than "racial" distinctions, so once I've established the "look" of a particular people I can just use their name and (hopefully) the reader will immediately envisage the correct look.

[Ökuþórr]

Since I don't view people from other countries as being from a different race, I have no problems with describing folk from different countries. You can go to North Korea (somewhere i just assume that the people don't get many chances to procreate with none NK's) and find people looking different; be it facial features or skin tone etc. (to be honest i find the term "race" outdated anyway, but thats a different debate all together.)

My WIP's second main character is black, and if it wasn't for the fact that my first MC has never met him before you wouldn't find that out until quite late on in the book when he talks about his time as a soldier (for the Germans) in the First World War. You don't really know he's "black" when my MC describes him anyway, since she just says dark skin. She's more interested in his tattoos, arm ring, inhumanly bright green eyes and the fact that she has no idea where she is or whats going on.

"assume white unless stated otherwise" is something I've never heard before. I don't know how that would really work either, since like black or brown folk, white people don't all look the same and don't belong to one single culture. If you can describe two different white people, you should be able to describe pretty much anyone.

.........

Off Topic.
But this is (was) my One Hundredth post! Its taken three years, but I'm there (quick fellow i am). I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure someone here should be bringing me cake right now.

[Abernovo]

Originally Posted by allmywires

How do you do it? Do you apply the 'assume white unless stated otherwise' rule, or do you make it explicit for every character? Is it even important that it's stipulated at all?

I thought it would be a good question to ask because there's been a lot of chinwagging about the Hunger Games film and how Katniss isn't 'dark' enough. Would it matter to you if someone interpreted your character as a different race than you intended?

Well, what colour am I? Or anyone else posting? Unless you're describing some specific feature, it probably doesn't have much relevance to a story. The one exception to this would be if there was a racist character or regime, etc.

Anyway, there is, and always has been, so much mixing that colour is really an imposed label, not a definition of a person. Cultural influences play a bigger role, I would suggest.

Originally Posted by Ökuþórr

Since I don't view people from other countries as being from a different race, I have no problems with describing folk from different countries. You can go to North Korea (somewhere i just assume that the people don't get many chances to procreate with none NK's) and find people looking different; be it facial features or skin tone etc. (to be honest i find the term "race" outdated anyway, but thats a different debate all together.)

Precisely. Communities vary greatly. In Afghanistan and Pakistan for instance, there are groups with genes for red hair and green eyes.

I think a character is, in most cases, just a character. Like all the rubbish about Daniel Craig not being suitable for Bond because he's blond. Well, in a modern imagining, seeing as 007 is no longer a Second World War veteran, as in the first book, why couldn't he be played by a person of colour? Any colour.

And frankly, allmywires (may I call you amw?), if someone wanted to make a film out of my scribblings, they can use any darn actor they want. I can just do with the money!!

Originally Posted by Ökuþórr

Off Topic.
But this is (was) my One Hundredth post! Its taken three years, but I'm there (quick fellow i am). I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure someone here should be bringing me cake right now.

Congratulations, Ökuþórr! What sort of cake would you like? Not saying I'll manage to send it off before it gets eaten, mind.

[Piousflea]

It's important to describe race if race matters to the story. In a story where race and class have been allegorized as "Capital vs Districts", race is no longer relevant at all. On the other hand, if French and Italian types are allied with elves while Scottish and Norse types are virulently anti-elf, then race matters.

Similarly, if you're 300 light-years from Earth and everyone is a mix of all races, race is irrelevant until you run into an asteroid belt settled by militant Neo-Nazi exiles who launch nukes at the other human colonies.

[Arkose]

Originally Posted by Ökuþórr

"assume white unless stated otherwise" is something I've never heard before. I don't know how that would really work either, since like black or brown folk, white people don't all look the same and don't belong to one single culture. If you can describe two different white people, you should be able to describe pretty much anyone.

Depends on the story and the context of "assume white unless stated otherwise." I have just finished a book that is told in the first person POV. You never get the sense of what the main character looks like. You do know he is Celtic, so it gives you almost everything you need, but i guess its more of a stereotype. While I never assume every character is white, I do make assumptions once a nationality is offered.

[Karn Maeshalanadae]

The thing is, authors tend to describe "area" rather than "race" for the most part. That tends to give the reader some kind of impression on what particular race a particular character is.


Of course, you can always use facial features, expressions, and mannerisms to describe one's racial and cultural influences.

[Gumboot]

I think some people don't even understand what "race" is. It's neither "nationality", nor "ethnicity".

There are only three human races; caucasoid, negroid and mongoloid, though each of these has further divisions of sub-race (caucasoid for example can be further broken down into Aryan, Semitic and Hamitic) while mongoloid has ten different sub-races.

They're so broad and vague as to be meaningless; for example arabs and norse are both caucasoids.

That's why I much prefer to use ethnic (cultural) distinctions rather than racial.

[Karn Maeshalanadae]

Well, that's putting a few too many flies in the pie there, Gumboot.


Actually, yes, I think this does mean more on ethnicity than broad-term "race" but "race" is used interchangeably with "ethnicity."



Also, this tends to be a place where a character's name can to be very important. If you have someone named along the lines of John or Edward, or whatever similar name constructs you have, you can probably feel comfortable in guessing he's of a descent similar to English. If you have something more like Albert, then probably leaning more towards Germanic, so on and so forth.

[Arkose]

Originally Posted by Gumboot

I think some people don't even understand what "race" is. It's neither "nationality", nor "ethnicity".

I think many of us do know what race is or atleast what the poster means by the use of the word.