Breaking into Sci-Fi versus Fantasy

[Stephen Palmer]

The fans help - if you get good reviews from people you don't know, that's "proof positive"

[Anne Lyle]

Originally Posted by iansales

Plenty of women read and write sf. I've seen studies that show at least half of the readership are female. But they won't read books that exclude them. So write novels with diverse casts and female characters with agency. If your novel fails the Bechdel Test, chuck it out and start again.

Personally I think the Bechdel Test is overly restrictive - depending on your setting, it's not always possible to show two female characters having a conversation that has nothing to do with men, unless you pause the plot for them to do so. I'm not going to write a page of irrelevant dialogue about sewing or whatever just to pass an arbitrary test

To me it's more important for your female characters to have agency (as in, they're pro-active and don't just have things happen to them). And never, ever use rape as a "something bad needs to happen to my heroine at this point" gimmick. It's tired, unimaginative and will just annoy your female readers.

</rant>

[iansales]

The Bechdel Test is a useful tool, but it should never be used as a checklist. If you have two female characters talk about sewing so you can pass it, you'd be better off asking why those characters only seem to exist in relation to the male characters and you need to apply such tricks.

[Hex]

Took me minutes to find this, so here are the fruits of my labour: Bechdel Test strip.

[springs]

My only problem with this is they have to talk to another woman about it. (mine do, as it happens.) Only I grew up with oodles of brothers and I'd talk to them about things that weren't to do with blokes, evidently.

So, can a woman in the story be deemed to pass this if she has conversations about all sorts of things - not sewing, can't see it, somehow, but budget figures and army sizes - with other blokes. Brothers. Friends. Etc. Etc.

[Anne Lyle]

Originally Posted by iansales

If you have two female characters talk about sewing so you can pass it, you'd be better off asking why those characters only seem to exist in relation to the male characters and you need to apply such tricks.

Well, in my case it's because they live in a highly patriarchal society (16th century Europe) where only men can own property, become MPs, doctors, lawyers, etc - and I'm basically writing spy thrillers. It's hard enough fitting women into that milieu, without trying to exclude men from their conversation.

In fact I'm finding it very difficult to think of a non-domestic topic of conversation they could have which would not involve men at some point!

[The Judge]

I'm with Anne on this, except I'd go further and say it's all but useless for anyone who is writing seriously. If I have two female cops who discuss how to bring down the big crime boss, and spend the rest of the book doing just that, I've apparently failed if the boss is a man. More to the point, if they spend the entire book talking about nail varnish and hair extensions I've passed the test with flying colours even if they do sod-all to the plot. Yeah, right. That's just the kind of test we want to ensure that women appear properly represented in novels.

Write characters, people. Make some of those characters women and give them jobs to do. Let them talk about whatever they want to flaming talk about as long as it's important to the book.

NB springs -- no. The test is for women to talk to women. So it doesn't matter how much your female characters talk to men, you've failed if they don't talk to each other.

[Coragem]

Originally Posted by springs1971

And the mountain seems very high, and it is, so we'll all of us, in our own wee way, might have to help the others up.
J.

Ah, indeed Springs. It's good to have experienced authors (Teresa, the two Ians, Anne, Stephen Palmer …) at SFF Chrons to advise us. And yep, I look forward to helping others up when up on that mountain!!! Sigh.

Originally Posted by David Evil Overlord

I broke into Sci-fi. I got time off for good behaviour.

Mr Overlord, you're great -- you keep making me laugh!!!

Originally Posted by Abernovo

… humour exists in Science Fiction.

Certainly it does. Jack Vance is another fine example.

Originally Posted by iansales

Don't write to market. By the time you've finished your magnum opus that's supposed to plug that gap you've spotted, the market has moved on.

Indeed, Ian. I made the same point in one of Hex's recent threads. The speed I write, if I were planning to fill a gap in the market I'm need a time machine -- i.e., zip 5yrs into the future.

I'm hoping that some things – like my use of humour to take one example – will be appealing to any readership. People like to be entertained, if the pitch is right.

Originally Posted by Ian Whates

You need to have faith in what you're doing, and believe that your work is good enough to be a part of that cream, no matter what knocks you take along the way.

Thanks Ian, THAT was an inspiring post.

Originally Posted by Warren_Paul

I'm trying not to get a big head, but I do believe in myself. I'm sure I'll succeed too. One day.

Ah, self-belief. What I'm currently writing is almost always awful, but I try not to let that knock my confidence too much. In fact, it's so normal for me now I take it as a good sign!

After all the painful writing and rewriting is over I always (touch wood) look back and say, "Did I really write that?? It's actually … my god, it's good!" Then it's the next scene and right back to "Gosh, this is dreadful!"

Coragem.

[Coragem]

Originally Posted by Ian Whates

I recall having a conversation (which I cringe about now) with Alastair Reynolds back in 2005, before I had any publishing contracts, in which I bemoaned the difficulty of breaking through as a new author. He maintained that the system works, and that in his opinion the cream would still rise to the top.

Alastair Reynolds certainly is the cream:

Alastair's masterclass

Coragem

[Warren_Paul]

Originally Posted by Coragem

After all the painful writing and rewriting is over I always (touch wood) look back and say, "Did I really write that?? It's actually … my god, it's good!" Then it's the next scene and right back to "Gosh, this is dreadful!"

Oh yeah. I know that feeling. There is a scene in my book where everyone who has read it so far as shed a tear for the character -touching wood now, never too late for someone to brush over it and feel nothing. But your dead inside if you do- I'm looking at it and thinking: "Wow, I wrote something that powerful?"

But now I'm looking at later scenes and thinking, why did I even write this rubbish, so rewriting them.

[David Evil Overlord]

Originally Posted by springs1971

And the mountain seems very high, and it is, so we'll all of us, in our own wee way, might have to help the others up.
J.

I second that. And a refreshing change from some dark corners of the internet, I might add.

Originally Posted by Coragem

Mr Overlord, you're great -- you keep making me laugh!!!

As long as you're laughing at my attempts at humour, and not my serious posts...what? I can so do serious!

[Warren_Paul]

Originally Posted by David Evil Overlord

As long as you're laughing at my attempts at humour, and not my serious posts...what? I can so do serious!

Once in a blue moon...

[David Evil Overlord]

Originally Posted by Warren_Paul

Once in a blue moon...

I said I can do it. I didn't say "often".

[Carro]

So what are the normal topics of conversation? Depends on the women.

At coffee break at work, women to women, mixed group, men to men, I've heard anything from
Work
Boss
Colleague
Childcare
Cooking
Bargains
IT problems
Spouse
Relatives
Football/other sport
TV
Books
Moron who cut you up on the way to work
Best garage for your car repairs

Can't think of a single conversation about opera....

Which makes me wonder, taking it to extremes - if two women discuss football and all footballers in the team are male......
Also, unless this is relevant to the plot, how many conversations of this sort would you actually want?


And question - is space opera included in science fiction in terms of who reads what and how much is read?

Just thinking Liaden books for example.

[springs]

Originally Posted by Carro

And question - is space opera included in science fiction in terms of who reads what and how much is read?

It should be, it's a recognised sub genre of sci fi.