(More) dialogue punctuation questions

[Ursa major]

Originally Posted by Hex

And I have a lack of clarity. I asked a vaguely similar question in this thread: Dialogue... help?

and you suggested using dashes (I think).

You're right: I did, in post#26 of that thread.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Hex

I was just reading a thing by DBC Pierre in The Guardian (it's here). He was writing about dialogue and he did this:

"By the time I left the pub," Richard lifted the blind: "I could barely see them."

Is that okay? I had absorbed from somewhere (possibly a dream) that it was Bad to break a sentence of dialogue without using a dialogue tag. So:

"By the time I left the pub," Richard said, lifting the blind, "I could barely see them."

But are both okay?

IMO the first example looks just plain clumsy and wrong in different ways:

- incorrect use of punctuation
- incorrect construction
- overall, sloppy use of words

I admit, I don't know these rules, and he may be technically correct.

However, as an editor, I would have that corrected or rewritten to something like the second form, as that is far more conventional - it is easier to read, too.

[Hex]

Maybe they don't edit as hard once you've won the Booker... Artistic license and all that.

(I am artistic, you are mistaken, s/he is an idiot etc)

It was in a 'Guardian masterclass' on writing interesting dialogue in fiction. Hmm.

[Abernovo]

There's another thread over in General Book Discussion - A Private Letter from Genre to Literature by Daniel Abraham - that I feel has a bit of (perhaps tangential) relevance. Call me a cynic if you will, but I think you can get away with violating the sentence construction rules more if you're writing 'highbrow' literary fiction rather than genre fiction. Do it as a science fiction or fantasy writer and it's suddenly proof that you're writing trash.

For my own part, I've never seen the difference between literary and genre fiction. It's supposed to transport you to another place, hopefully make you think. So whilst I wouldn't really use Pierre's form myself, it is a valid form of sentence construction in literature. I've got a copy of Vernon God Little lying about somewhere. Might be time to read it and see if he has got anything interesting to say.

Anyway, just a thought.

[Hex]

*weep* I just found this description of how to punctuate the interuption of sentences without using 'he said'. The world is out to confuse me.

The guide says to do it like this. That has too many commas, though -- does it?

"You," I thrust a finger at him decidedly, "are the reason the world hates us. You know how it works; I'm not going to teach you. But if you just let the poor get poorer, things will fall apart."

[Mouse]

Why do you not want to use 'said' anyway?

[springs]

Um, I know you'll groan Hex, but that looks exactly right to me. A thing of beauty. Sorry.

And I'm afraid I can't write without the I said, laughed, grinned, paused... de nada forever, I just need it to understand the dialogue. So old fashioned.

[Hex]

Originally Posted by Mouse

Why do you not want to use 'said' anyway?

I'd like to know how not to.

[HareBrain]

Originally Posted by Hex

The guide says to do it like this. That has too many commas, though -- does it?

"You," I thrust a finger at him decidedly, "are the reason the world hates us. You know how it works; I'm not going to teach you. But if you just let the poor get poorer, things will fall apart."

Again, I feel I have to point this out -- this is non-standard, and if you choose to do it, traditionalists will scour the ground you have walked on with salt. You cannot "thrust a finger at him decidely" the word "you". The sentence as constructed attempts to apply the action of thrusting to that word, which is clearly nonsense. The fact that this is in a guide to punctuation, and that its writers apparently think this is normal, makes me despair. (Did I say that in the last example?)

Edit: I've just read some stuff from the link. Sorry, but AVOID IT LIKE THE PLAGUE!

[Mouse]

Well I'd stick an 'I said' in your example sentence up there, Hex. Looks and sounds better to me!

[Hex]

Originally Posted by HareBrain

The fact that this is in a guide to punctuation, and that its writers apparently think this is normal, makes me despair. (Did I say that in the last example?)

Yes. But say it again, as often as it needs said.

I seem to be collecting these examples to justify my own confusion. I just about have a grasp of what I can't do (well, sort of) but I want to understand what I should do (except use 'said').

I don't think I'm especially stupid (that is not a statement requiring a response, just in case anyone was tempted).

[Abernovo]

It's just another word for said but:

"You are the reason the world hate us," I told him firmly.

[Hex]

So would:

"You," I wagged my finger decidedly, "are the reason..." etc. be any better? (I know it's not pretty)

[HareBrain]

Well, here's how I would do the above.

"You --" I thrust a finger at him decidedly; "are the reason the world hates us."

The dash separates the dialogue from the action, but still allows it to flow in the same way. The semi-colon, again, separates the action from the following dialogue in the way a comma would not, but because it isn't a full stop, it brings the two dialogue sections into one sentence. I guess you could use another dash instead of the semi-colon.

"You --" I thrust a finger at him decidedly -- "are the reason the world hates us."

This has the same effect as putting it in parentheses, best observed without quote marks:

You (I thrust a finger at him decidedly) are the reason the world hates us.



Edit @ Hex's previous post: No, it's the same: you're still trying to wag the word You. Take out the quote marks, as you might if it were a thought -- if the dialogue punctuation is correct, it should still make sense.

[springs]

Originally Posted by Hex

I don't think I'm especially stupid (that is not a statement requiring a response, just in case anyone was tempted).

Much too well behaved to do anything like that. But, why not add the descriptor? You don't have to use said.