Eledhel and Moredhel relations (HE and K:TB spoilers)

[Hekateras]

I would like to put forth my theory (hypothesis, more like) for consideration that I believe makes the series more satsifying.

First, a fact run:

- The magic of Elvandar is created/maintained by the Spellweavers - as Feist puts it in the crydee.com FAQ, if the eledhel moved to Crydee, Crydee would eventually become Elvandar.

- The eledhel and moredhel are the same, but while a moredhel can Return, the reverse simply doesn't happen, though logic dictates that it must, given the natural diversity within a society.

- A moredhel's Return is attributed to "the Call" of Elvandar and happens over many years, during which the moredhel starts acting strangely, culminating in a sudden switch. The moredhel take the view that the individual's mind has been poisoned and that they've been bewitched into betraying their people and leaving their family.

- A moredhel who Returns assimilates completely into eledhel society and their old identity is dead. They leave behind their old life, clanmates, friends, spouses, children, etc.

- The average moredhel isn't terribly likely to come to eledhel-like views on their own. In other words, there must be an external factor changing them. Such as the Call.

- During Tomas's Valheru identity crisis in the first book, the Spellweavers were able to discreetly manipulate his mind to help him fight the influence of Ashen-Shugar, keeping certain traits in dominance and suppressing others.

- In Honored Enemy, Tinuva (a Returned) started exhibiting moredhel traits towards the end. He is also said to have spent most of his time outside of Elvandar (due to coping issues, aka still being in love with his moredhel wife).

- At least per the game (Betrayal at Krondor), it is physically painful for a moredhel to try to resist the Call.



Put the pieces together, and I have this:
The eledhel are not (just) Mary Sues. They maintain their universal goodness by suppressing their own people's less than noble traits and urges. A side effect (probably initially an accident) is occasionally brainwashing moredhel into Returning. Which, given that it's not really a matter of choice or free will for the moredhel, is a real dastardly thing to do.

Especially once you consider that it's a death sentence for anyone who's unlikely to survive the flight to Elvandar, i.e. anyone with less than top-knotch woodscraft skills (by moredhel standards) or anyone living deep in the Northlands (chasing Returned ones is easy - you already know where they're going, you just have to intercept). That means that the only people likely to survive Returning are skilled, healthy, experienced, male moredhel who live relatively close to the border. From the POV of the eledhel, a successful Returning is rare and happens ca. once per century, but it's likely that the rate of failed Returnings is at least ten times that, probably more.

Something else: How the eledhel broke natural selection. :P
Moredhel who are naturally more goodish/less moredhelish seem more vulnerable to being affected by Returning. (Tinuva was allegedly the more charismatic and diplomatic of the two brothers, and Gorath is changed naturally by his experiences with humans, exhibits none of the symptoms of Returning, but when he sets foot in Elvandar, the magic latches onto him and he converts soon after.)

In other words: Moredhel society as a whole cannot become less evil or Valheru-emulating, because any individuals who do are likely to disappear into Elvandar and never have any say in the Northlands again. (Tough luck, Gorath, Mr. "It is time we became more than savages")

(Not to mention that the existence of the Returning would create mass paranoia and a tendency to interpret goodish behaviour as symptoms of Returning, thus reinforcing moredhel acting evilish for the sake of appearances even if they don't really want to.)

On that note, Gorath's situation was especially egregious, because he'd already sacrificed everything he had for his people as a whole, and had every reason NOT to want to become eledhel, to whom he owes no natural loyalty or allegiance.) Despite that, he tears up and goes all "How could we have known...". That's Feist derailing a great character to shoehorn him into worshipping his race of Mary Sues. I find it much easier to swallow if I read brainwashing into it.

And that's my interpretation of the canon, which, to me, makes things (and especially the otherwise very bland eledhel) more interesting. Whenever a previously neutral character sees Elvandar, they are instantly awed and cowed and want to worship them. (See every character who enters Elvandar ever, most outrageously the taredhel brothers.)

Thoughts?

[Morvai_]

One falacy, The moredhel are deluded as were the glamredhel, remember in the edder forest the responce from Earnorn "barlimandar" in their minds elvandar is a mythical place they have no idea what they have missed.

also your hypothesis has another flaw, during one conversation about the returning they mention spies had tried to pretend to "return" a few times but they were always found out, this would imply that not all like gorath can be turned.

lastly im of the view the eledhel are not brainwashing as such, its merley a calming magic subtle and only works on those who let it, the darker side to their magic is the forest killing those who enter without permission.

[Hekateras]

Originally Posted by Morvai_

One falacy, The moredhel are deluded as were the glamredhel, remember in the edder forest the responce from Earnorn "barlimandar" in their minds elvandar is a mythical place they have no idea what they have missed.

How is that a fallacy? The moredhel being "deluded" does not mean it's right for them to be completely stripped of identity and everything they hold dear and to be absorbed into the eledhel ranks. Besides, like I demonstrated, taking in Returned ones is just helping KEEP the moredhel as a society deluded.

also your hypothesis has another flaw, during one conversation about the returning they mention spies had tried to pretend to "return" a few times but they were always found out, this would imply that not all like gorath can be turned.

I never claimed that it has a 100% success rate. Strawman. The situation you described is also very different from Gorath's or the would-be Returned - they are moredhel who are deliberately faking the Returning to get at their enemy - in short, they still have all the moredhel views and attitudes, haven't been under the influence of the magic long enough and haven't changed their attitudes of their own volition, like Gorath did. And what are you saying? "It's not wrong because they don't always succeed?" That's like saying that shooting someone isn't wrong, because the victim has a chance to survive.

lastly im of the view the eledhel are not brainwashing as such, its merley a calming magic subtle and only works on those who let it, the darker side to their magic is the forest killing those who enter without permission.

Well, if they're not brainwashing, how exactly do you explain such a high number of moredhel (remember, with how difficult it is to survive Returning, if one moredhel a century makes it, the number of failures must be much, much higher) randomly, without external influence, deciding that they want to change their ways? And not just "change their ways" in general, but change them to something very specific? How do you explain none of the eledhel, not one, ever going bad?

And if the eledhel DO accomplish all of the above, as everything in the books indicates, calling it "subtle magic" is just quibbling over terms.

Only works on those who let it... Yeah, except "not letting" it is painful. Even that aside, that phrase is problematic. What "only works"? The magic that changes them? So the magic that changes them only works if they let it work on them? Even if that were true, at best, it indicates some sort of lack of will to resist the magic - all the attitudes and views that the moredhel gains are still a product of the magic, rather than their own experiences. When magic changes the way you feel about things to something specific, directly, you call it brainwashing, no matter if you "agreed" to the brainwashing or not.

[Morvai_]

Originally Posted by Hekateras

How is that a fallacy? The moredhel being "deluded" does not mean it's right for them to be completely stripped of identity and everything they hold dear and to be absorbed into the eledhel ranks. Besides, like I demonstrated, taking in Returned ones is just helping KEEP the moredhel as a society deluded.

Well it doesent strip them entirley of their identity, the way i view it is this,

the Edhel are one people, as described in varying books they just chose different paths

we have the 4 basic groups

Eldar
Eledhel - Light elves (note thats actually an insulting name given to them by the moredhel any eledhel would describe him/herself as Edhel)
Moredhel - Dark elves (name given by the eledhel)
Glamredhel - Mad elves (who knows who gave them that name :P)

thing is you can see elements of these in other groups that turn up later

Anoredhel - irrelevant to this tbh
Ocedhel - Very much like glamredhel in that they have lost all touch with their edhel culture
Taredhel - they are eldar with the view point of the moredhel to a point.

I dont view one way or the other as wrong, but i would say that the eledhel are the least tainted by the valheru and chaos wars,

Eledhel who have returned still keep their moredhel persona in some form (Tinuva at the point of going after bovai thinks as Morvai of clan raven not tinuva of elvandar), arguably they are just representations of the inner battle all sentient beings have between right and wrong. that said even as a full moredhel morvai was always more diplomatic etc as has been said arguably he was naturally going to turn. that said i dont view it as a brain wash merley a small small element of the moredhel who have a natural inclination towards rejecting the dark path.

Originally Posted by Hekateras

I never claimed that it has a 100% success rate. Strawman. The situation you described is also very different from Gorath's or the would-be Returned - they are moredhel who are deliberately faking the Returning to get at their enemy - in short, they still have all the moredhel views and attitudes, haven't been under the influence of the magic long enough and haven't changed their attitudes of their own volition, like Gorath did. And what are you saying? "It's not wrong because they don't always succeed?" That's like saying that shooting someone isn't wrong, because the victim has a chance to survive.

Well i think some moredhel are naturally inclined to be returned than others, some pledge to the darkness, Murad, Bovai, Kavala and Delekhan are all examples of moredhel who are in my opinion immune to the returning. I think some of the core values both groups of edhel value (honour, trustworthyness ((in the moredhel case thats non applicable towards other humans))and yes some are without honour but as seen during the end of the fight with baru and murad one who acts with dishonour often gets cut down by others who do have honour) Are prehaps stronger in some like gorath or morvai?

Also bear in mind that unlike the Eledhel the moredhel are a fractured people. The eledhel have unity they serve their queen and have some form of stability, where as the moredhel war amoungst themselves as often as not, clan warfare, betrayal of alliances are common place. its not suprizing in that context that some people would be born to this culture who would utterly reject it (remember that even during the days of slavery some people rejected the status quo and treated black people as equals, just as even in my home country zimbabwe in the last 10 years while there has been increased racism against white people many reject the idea and offer help instead of more violence).

In any society someone born to it who find it objectionable will rebel. in elvandar perhaps people are so content they feel no need to rebel, second its not true slavery if your free to leave, anyone who is welcomed to elvandar has the right to leave and any elf whatever his history if he comes in peace is free to depart the same way.

Originally Posted by Hekateras

Well, if they're not brainwashing, how exactly do you explain such a high number of moredhel (remember, with how difficult it is to survive Returning, if one moredhel a century makes it, the number of failures must be much, much higher) randomly, without external influence, deciding that they want to change their ways? And not just "change their ways" in general, but change them to something very specific? How do you explain none of the eledhel, not one, ever going bad?

And if the eledhel DO accomplish all of the above, as everything in the books indicates, calling it "subtle magic" is just quibbling over terms.

I explain it the same way the eledhel would, that the calling to elvandar is a pulling to the true home of their race, if you droped any elf onto kelewan (prior to the events of darkness at sethanon) with the exception of ocedhel and glamredhel (although even they might) instinctivley head north to elvardein home of the exiled eldar. it is a pulling towards what feels like home to the moredhel who are born without the same level of extreme anger most moredhel live on. i think tbh its not as high as you think it is. if less than 12 had made it by the time gorath returned in the last god knows how many years id say less than 3 per 20 years would be the average of those heading to elvandar to return prior to the undoing of the lifestone by calis. its not a HIGH number ever and Tathar says as much several times :P

Originally Posted by Hekateras

Only works on those who let it... Yeah, except "not letting" it is painful. Even that aside, that phrase is problematic. What "only works"? The magic that changes them? So the magic that changes them only works if they let it work on them? Even if that were true, at best, it indicates some sort of lack of will to resist the magic - all the attitudes and views that the moredhel gains are still a product of the magic, rather than their own experiences. When magic changes the way you feel about things to something specific, directly, you call it brainwashing, no matter if you "agreed" to the brainwashing or not.

Except own experiences must also play a part. example if morvai had witnesed bovai killed by an eledhel prior to his returning the hate would have consumed him and he never would have returned,. the returning only occurs within moredhel like morvai and gorath who ultimatley seek peace within themselves and for their kin. Yes it would hurt to resist the urge once it was fully realised, tbh if youve ever been a smoker id imagine its like severe withdrawal at the start and then becomes like coming off heroin the longer you resist (and i have no experience with coming off heroin 2 be clear but i know people who have and its apparently pretty bad :P)
I think you have to at some point decide u dont like the way of life in the moredhel society to feel that pull anyway, and as an example of its only applicable to the moredhel notice that glamredhel (who were once twisted by mad forces) never feel the need 2 return they just had heard of barlimandar in myth eventually finding their way there after meeting galain, this would imply that its not some random magic that seizes the nearest edhel mind thats not an eledhel and fills it with a compulsion to return :P

Either way its a complex issue and thanks for a good debate on it keep it going :P

[Hekateras]

Oh, I definitely agree that some moredhel are more prone to Returning, based on their personality and how much they've been indoctrinated/exposed to the Dark Path. Judging by Gorath, some moredhel at least view the Dark Path and the Valheru artifacts with wariness, so would be more likely to Return. However...

Originally Posted by Morvai_

Well it doesent strip them entirley of their identity, the way i view it is this,

But it DOES strip them of identity. The very books put it like that - when a moredhel Returns, their old self is considered DEAD by all involved. They also lose everything that defined their life up to that point - personal ties, friends, family, beliefs, etc. The only thing more identity-annihilating would be a complete memory wipe.

Also bear in mind that unlike the Eledhel the moredhel are a fractured people. The eledhel have unity they serve their queen and have some form of stability, where as the moredhel war amoungst themselves as often as not, clan warfare, betrayal of alliances are common place. its not suprizing in that context that some people would be born to this culture who would utterly reject it (remember that even during the days of slavery some people rejected the status quo and treated black people as equals, just as even in my home country zimbabwe in the last 10 years while there has been increased racism against white people many reject the idea and offer help instead of more violence).

In any society someone born to it who find it objectionable will rebel. in elvandar perhaps people are so content they feel no need to rebel, second its not true slavery if your free to leave, anyone who is welcomed to elvandar has the right to leave and any elf whatever his history if he comes in peace is free to depart the same way.

Certainly. They might find it objectionable and decide to do things differently. They might decide to withdraw with others like them, or try to fight the system. But deciding that their own way is wrong does not by any means equal automatically deciding that the way of the eledhel is right. Especially when they have no means of direct comparison and no personal experience with the way of the eledhel - and that's the crucial difference between this situation and the slavery years. When an "inferior" group lives right under your nose, it's not THAT implausible for someone to go all "Hey, they're actually just like us" eventually. It is completely different when a range of mountains, political, physical and magical barriers separate you and the other group and you've never actually seen how that other group lives.

Again, in short, it comes down to this: Of course it makes sense that some moredhel wouldn't be happy with how things are, but a complete conversion to eledhel ways should be the LAST thing they'd consider, given that they've been raised to hate the eledhel. Being dissatisfied with your ways doesn't mean you jump to the opposing side - that'd be like if a US citizen who grew up in the Cold War era while being spoon-fed anti-Soviet propaganda suddenly decided that, because capitalism seems to suck, clearly communism is the way to go. Sure, it might happen, but it would be very radical to switch your world view by 180 like that, and it's very implausible - there would first need to be something to change your opinion about communism, as well. You'd need to be convinced that capitalism is wrong, and then, separately, that communism is right.

And that's not even getting into how the Returning works. The Returnings don't play out like someone coolly deciding to change their allegiances and join the other team. No, it first takes decades of acting strange and distant and generally brain-addled, until there's a sudden switch that takes everyone by surprise, including you, and then you're running for your life, no matter what you were doing before that and what priorities and responsibilities you have. In short, there is a very obvious supernatural component to a Returning. The source of that supernatural component is claimed to be Elvandar's magic. That automatically gives it a very non-con vibe.

its not a HIGH number ever and Tathar says as much several times :P

I repeat, and I stress - it is not a high number and it is very rare for a moredhel to Return, as viewed by the eledhel. That is, for a moredhel to Return and make it to Elvandar. In order to Return successfully, a moredhel would need to be both lucky and skilled - even Tinuva, who had a head start and was skilled enough to be the supposed future Paragon Chieftain, entered Elvandar with arrows literally flying after him and getting him in the leg, if I recall. If Bovai had caught up to him a hundred yards earlier, the moredhel would've killed him and the eledhel would be none the wiser. Hell, if his Returning had happened in the middle of the village during the day instead of at his home at night, he'd have been dead almost instantly. Considering that a moredhel can sense that change in another and how quickly they are to react, it is VASTLY improbable for a moredhel to convert at a time and place that gives them at least some chance at survival. The number of FAILED Returnings could easily be several dozen times higher.

By the way, Morvai, even as a moredhel, was a diplomat, and apparently not that bad a sort. When he left, he left the spot open for Murad to take. You know, the Murad who was a crazy madman and Murmandamus's lapdog. Case in point in lieu of "the Returnings harm moredhel society".


@ Your next paragraph... It's like I said before. Yes, experience obviously plays a role. But deciding that you don't want to be war-like and hostile is a very far cry from deciding that you want to be like the eledhel and, more importantly, that you want to abandon your own people and go live with the eledhel.

to the moredhel notice that glamredhel (who were once twisted by mad forces) never feel the need 2 return they just had heard of barlimandar in myth eventually finding their way there after meeting galain, this would imply that its not some random magic that seizes the nearest edhel mind thats not an eledhel and fills it with a compulsion to return :P

Yes, the Call isn't some random magic that seizes the nearest edhel mind and fills it with a compulsion to Return. It's random magic that seizes the most suitable moredhel/Dark Path-affected mind and fills it with a compulsion to Return.

The eledhel had no idea the glamredhel even existed until Darkness at Sethanon - depending on how the Call works, it's not surprising that the glamredhel aren't affected.

But, yes, fun debate.