A Dance with Dragons - Discussion - WARNING: SPOILERS!

[JOVANENAD]

Originally Posted by Ursa major

I don't know why Viserys and Deny weren't educated in the same way as Aegon, but I can guess. Aegon, as the true heir** (see below), needed protection and Viserys and Dany were useful decoys, visible targets for Robert's ire that diverted him from looking for hidden ones.

In the case of inheriting power, it follows the first son, otherwise Stannis would have been the heir even if Joffrey had been Robert's. If there's a rule where the heir of the deceased heir is overlooked in favour of the heir's brother, I haven't noticed it, not in the books. (I'll admit that I may have missed it, so would be grateful if the relevant paragraphs could be identified.)


In the UK, some of whose history was one inspiration for ASoIaF, the crown can be inherited through dead intermediary once-heirs. If Prince Charles had died before his mother, and the Queen had died before Prince William came of age, we would have had a King William (and a regency) not a King Andrew.


** - Assuming he is the real Aegon.

I agree about the decoy part completely. As for the inheritance part I am not sure what to think, if we look at European medieval inheritance law we will see many examples where, when the eldest son inherits the throne and dies before his son(for example) reaches mature age the crown goes to his oldest brother BUT it is ensured by edicts that the crown will pass to late kings son and his offspring. But its not always god to make parallels. You are right in Westeros its all about the firstborn son. But if Dany and Vyseris were just decoys why put so much efort to mary Dany with Khal Drogo Illiro was expecting those 40000 Dothraki with Vyseris. And I don't think he would have liked the idea of having a cousin. Also why didn't Illirio told Baristan that Aegon was alive when he send him to Deny. But who knows what game Illirio and Varys are playing.

[Ursa major]

Originally Posted by HareBrain

(Sorry if that's not well expressed. Too tired to judge.)

That was fine: I now see what you're getting at.

Originally Posted by JOVANENAD

But if Dany and Vyseris were just decoys why put so much efort to mary Dany with Khal Drogo Illiro was expecting those 40000 Dothraki with Vyseris. And I don't think he would have liked the idea of having a cousin. Also why didn't Illirio told Baristan that Aegon was alive when he send him to Deny. But who knows what game Illirio and Varys are playing.

The threat that Drogo was seen** to pose is the key here. Although the Dothraki travelled as far west as Pentos, Drogo's power base was far away and generally impenetrable to spies, particularly those not controlled by Varys. But the court did know of Varys's spy and so would believe what Varys would say. And he would be saying what he wanted them to hear at just the right time to have the greatest effect, i.e. when Aegon was about to return and needed the biggest diversion possible. And such a diversion would be necessary. The bringing together of a force capable (with help from the locals***) of restoring the Targs to the Iron Throne would not go unnoticed, although no doubt Varys would have provided plausible explanations that had nothing to do with such a restoration.


** - I don't think the Dothraki were ever going to travel to Westeros. If we can take Varys's statement to Kevan at face value (difficult, isn't it?), I can't see him wanting Dothraki screamers laying waste to the Seven Kingdoms. I'm sure Drogo would have met his end at some point, with the same result as his actual death gave: the Dothrakis staying in Essos.

*** - Dorne****, plus the previous Targ kings allies, Highgarden.

**** - That Viserys was killed by the Dothraki was beneficial to the cause (I'm assuming Viserys was encouraged to join the trek east, whatever Illyrio says): Aegon had nothing to do with it. Dorne and Highgarden could have vied to provide Aegon's bride. (Dany would be the obvious choice for Queen, but she could have been tarred with the name of kinslayer, at least as long as help was needed fom Dorne and Highgarden. After that, all bets would be off.)

[cape_royds]

I'll start with my Dislikes:

1. I find the entire Aegon storyline dissatisfying. It seems almost like it was grafted on to the main plot. The effort in doing this major retrofit might be the reason for the very long delay in publishing ADWD, and the real reason why the division between AFFC and ADWD was made by POV, rather than chronologically.

It's not that you can't explain or justify the reed-basket escape of baby Aegon, or the exiled Connington's resurgence. It can logically be made to work. But it's all quite a stretch.

Or is it possible that a reader could actually feel a sort of jealousy of a new major character?

2. While the Selmy pov's aren't bad, on the whole the Meereen chapters make tedious reading. These chapters are not valueless, since Danaerys is learning, as did Robb Stark or Robert Baratheon, that there's a big difference between being a puissant warlord, and becoming an effective monarch. Unfortunately the reader is made to follow Dany's flailing efforts in close detail.

The biggest problem here is that the there are no really compelling Ghiscari characters or scenes, despite the quite considerable amount of description devoted to them. I also find that Dany's handmaids are too predictable--e.g. has Missandei or Irri ever given the reader a surprise? The implicit Orientalism in ASOIAF might be said to take a toll on the story itself. As a result, the Westerosi in Meereen just seem to be marking time against a background that is bland despite the exotic furnishings.

There were a whole bunch of people converging nicely on Dany (Marwyn, Victarion, Quentyn, Tyrion, and now also Prince Aegon the Unlikeliest) but instead GRRM chose to delay.

As Varys once said to Illyrio, "Make haste, even the finest juggler cannot keep a hundred balls in the air forever." GRRM of course, as I'm sure Illyrio would agree, is no mere juggler, but a true sorceror!

3. A smaller complaint: I find it improbable that two or three thousand quality fighting men were still available in the North, who could, moreover, all be gathered together in one swoop. Sure, Cassel and Tallheart had been taken by surprise by the descent of the Ironmen and the treachery of Bolton, but why would they ever have been filling their ranks with the greenest boys in the first place, when real men could still be mustered from the hills? The only way I can justify it to myself is on account of the harvests.

4. Too many almost-deaths, too many "saving throws." It's no longer very suspenseful. More like, "Oh, now Tyrion fell in the river, I wonder who will pull him out?" or "Oh, Jonny got stabbed, I wonder how GRRM will make it so he lives?"

I never really believed that Davos or Brienne or Sandor perished.

But the thing that really sold me on this whole series, was when King Joffrey made poor Ned dance the funky chicken. "Aha!" I cried, "now this becomes truly interesting!"

5. I'm just a little bit disappointed that Jorah and Tyrion didn't get drunk together and share embarrassing ex-wife stories. "Tell me, where do whores go, Mormont?" Reply: "Imp, why don't you go ask Lynesse, she'd know all about it!"


Now for my likes:

1. Janos Slynt got the chop, and in fine style.

2. With Rorge, Biter, Hoat, & Tickler all gone, Ramsay Bolton proudly assumes the mantle of Number One Monster, even if GRRM does exhibit his long-suspected S & M tastes in some of the Theon chapters.

3. There is actually a whole volume in which a musician or singer doesn't get brutally tortured and murdered. There are only loving, wistful recollections of the scenes in which musicians or singers were brutally tortured or murdered--and the hint of another bard about to get flayed. I wonder whether GRRM once had a high-school sweetheart stolen by a guitar player or something, since ASOIAF is almost like Revenge of the Writer Against the Musicians.

4. Tyrion rides the Pig, while Cersei runs naked in the streets. Myrcella lost an ear. Kevan becomes further proof that King's Hand is the world's most dangerous job. GRRM makes the Lannisters suffer as cruelly as the Starks.

5. The fearful symmetry of the Sand Snakes sent out to work, each in the way best suited to her.

[Lady of Winterfell]

Well I finished the book last night and am still letting it all soak in. I'm just trying to go through all the threads and see what everyone else thought and noticed. I have to say overrall I was a bit disappointed. I agree with most things that Culhwch has said, I feel that the story somewhat got away from Martin in this book and it could have used some serious editing.

Originally Posted by Culhwch

IThere would have to have been some changes - certainly Jon couldn't have 'died' off-screen, unless that was intended to happen later in the piece and was brought forward.

I just read an interview with GRRM last night where he stated the scenes with Jon and Melisandre were written 10 years ago, so I am assuming it was always supposed to be on-screen, though the placement within the story may have changed.

[Needle]

cape, I mostly agree with you except for this piece-

3. A smaller complaint: I find it improbable that two or three thousand quality fighting men were still available in the North, who could, moreover, all be gathered together in one swoop. Sure, Cassel and Tallheart had been taken by surprise by the descent of the Ironmen and the treachery of Bolton, but why would they ever have been filling their ranks with the greenest boys in the first place, when real men could still be mustered from the hills? The only way I can justify it to myself is on account of the harvests.

Here I would think they simply did not think it feasible that this clans could be convinced to fight together. Tyrion did the same basic thing with the mountain clans. It required a little bit of thinking outside the box. Most people would look at them and see small groups that are forever fighting each other, not a large number of born fighters to get on your side.

[Culhwch]

But then - Jon knew that the mountain clans would follow a strong leader, and that they were loyal to 'the Ned'. Surely Robb should have known the same - Jon and Robb both learnt at the elbow of Ned. Why then did Robb not think to enlist the help of the clans when he went south? He needed all the fighting men he could muster. This does seem to be a little bit of a hole in the plot...

[No One]

Just wildly throwing it out there, but maybe the Northern Lords wouldn't want the mountain clans claiming a share of the spoils (in Robb's case) or possibly assuming lands for themselves (in more recent cases)?

[purple_kathryn]

Enjoyed it overall but was abit frustrated as the story didn't move forward as much as I would've liked.

Especially as I really wanted Ramsay to be dead by the end of the book!

[Lady of Winterfell]

I agree Kathryn. I thought for a book so large I would have liked to see the story progress a bit more.

[Needle]

Originally Posted by Culhwch

But then - Jon knew that the mountain clans would follow a strong leader, and that they were loyal to 'the Ned'. Surely Robb should have known the same - Jon and Robb both learnt at the elbow of Ned. Why then did Robb not think to enlist the help of the clans when he went south? He needed all the fighting men he could muster. This does seem to be a little bit of a hole in the plot...

Robb may not have thought he really needed them, plus he was a little crazy at the time over the whole beheaded Ned thing!

[Culhwch]

Except Robb marched before Ned was beheaded...

[Needle]

Originally Posted by Culhwch

Except Robb marched before Ned was beheaded...

Dooh!! Somebody has to catch my stupidest comments!!

Still he may have thought they would be more trouble than they were worth, if he thought of them at all.

[Culhwch]

But why would he? Jon didn't think that they would be more trouble than they are worth, and Jon makes the point that he and Robb learnt together from their father and their master-at-arms - you can assume what one knows, the other knows. There has been no indication in the text to this point that they are trouble-makers, land-grabbers, or anything else. In fact, they have been distinctly made out to be honourable, loyal, and fierce fighters. Furthermore, Theo Wull was one of Ned's companions at the Tower of Joy - which I would assume would make him a close companion and confidant, and make the Wulls, at least, close to House Stark, or at the very least signify that Ned called the clans for Robert's Rebellion.

[Madeleine]

Robb called the banners, and no doubt he sent ravens to all his most powerful allies, but it wouldn't have been practical to wait for every fighting man in the North to get the message and turn up. The ones far away from Winterfell, especially far to the north, might not have been invited.

[Tenesmus]

Just finished... I flip flopped between AFFC and ADWD. Made for a very long read.

-I like how Bran talked to Theon and Jon.
-I did not like how Brienne's cliffhanger was resolved off-screen.
-I would have preferred 2 or 3 Sansa and Brienne chapters to all the Meereen.
-No real resolution of any threads.
-I am glad Theon and Asha are together
-I must have gotten spoiled by Joe Abercrombie.... I really wanted some well developed battle scenes...disappointing becaseu of the possibilities; The Wall, Meereen, Winterfell,
-Nice to see Varys. **smile**
-Happy to see Davos... where did he go?
-Rickon has a reason for existing!
-Asha kicks ass!
-Arya murder MO too obvious, get more cleverer GRRM!!
-Jon Snow...dead? methinks not. That guy with the giant boar showed up for a reason...
-Queen Selyse is a... see you next tuesday
-Ser Kevan... we hardly knew thee....