A Dance with Dragons - Discussion - WARNING: SPOILERS!

[thaddeus6th]

Overall, I liked ADWD, some bits more than others.

I really liked the parts with Ramsay and Theon (who, in earlier books, I'd found tedious). I also liked the parts with Davos and Stannis, but Jon somewhat less so. Breaking his vows as Lord Commander after just annoying almost all his brothers and being warned he was in grave danger was a bit moronic.

I'm glad the dragons got free at the end, but Daenerys seemed a bit wimpier than in previous instalments, getting blown around by events instead of seizing control.

I didn't mind Aegon's (apparent) introduction. Hasn't the doubt over his death been mentioned before? Plus, Connington was a pretty good new character.

[I, Brian]

Finished it last night and overall enjoyed it - a frustration before is that the books seemed to be exploring wider and losing focus, but finally with ADWD it finally feels like it's all starting to come together.

Highlights:

Janos Slynt - ha!
Tyrion and Jon as always
Bran finally does something
Peripheral character POV's were limited, allowing main character POV's to carry the story - great!
- Manderley's pie!! (I'd already compared ASoIaF with Shakespeare's Titus Andronicus when describing it to friends - now it is!!)
Quentyn's visit to the dragons - the imagery of him noticing the whip burned, his hand on fire, and then the rest of himself. "Oh, he thought. Then he began screaming".
- Aegon!
- Victarion's complete ruthlessness at sea
- Cersei's inner defiance, not defeated
- the dragons as barely tame monsters


Complaints aren't really complaints - but I did feel Jon's actions became increasingly out of character, not least with trying to throw resources at saving thousands of Wildlings when he's already lost 12 ships to that and has no food to feed them anyway. And if it takes Obsidian and fire to kill the Others, what use will the Wildings be there? Surely a great way to help spread the Others behind the wall? Roose Bolton's letter shouldn't have been the prompt it was - he's had worse with his father beheaded, Robb murdered, and Winterfell burned. Still, he's stabbed, but doesn't seem likely he'd die so feels a bit pointless to a degree.

Also, throwing Aegon into the mix seemed more an attempt to distract from the R+L=J theory - helluva wild card to throw in - but otherwise enjoyed it.

Not sure why Mereen is taking up so much storytime, but it's clear we're going to need another volume to finish that, catch up with Samwell, Jaime, Brienne, etc, before we're even ready to see a volume with Daenerys in Westeros and all that will follow from that.

And Dany meeting with Khal Jhago - almost feels like GRRM admitting he shouldn't have killed Drogo, which left Dany totally out of the story arc afterwards - but that's a grumble.

Overall, though, very much enjoyed the book, the pace, the characters, the story - and most of all, that it all feels like it's going somewhere instead of focusing too much on peripheral events and characters.

[thaddeus6th]

On Slynt: I was very pleased that [MODERATED] got his head lopped off.

[I, Brian]

Btw, anyone notice the "comet" from AFFC was completely absent from ADWD? Would have thought it should have been quite visible to Jon, Tyrion, and Dany.

Originally Posted by whiskeyntattoos

Now can Dany bare children again.....

Mirri Maz Duur prophecy from Got
When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east ~ Quentyn Martell
When the sea dries up ~ the Dothraki Sea
and the mountains crumble ~ the pyramids of Mereen

Clever thought.

[Ursa major]

Originally Posted by JOVANENAD

Why didn't Viserys and Dany got money,education and training like Aegon. It makes no sece Viserys was the rightfull, heir because Rhegar died before his father and was never king, by the low of the firstborn titles goes to next son if firstborn dies(even if he has children they are supposed to be of age and Aegon was not). And why did they kept them apart so the don't even know that other is alive? But i gues Spider had its reasons Aegon is the rightful heir and he is about to storm STORMS END? Denarys has the dragons, Victarion has the horn and Jon Snow is dead or dieing. Well I just hope I will live to see another book(I don't mean this in bad way good books require time) But I still have a feeling that Arya is going to kill them all.

I don't know why Viserys and Deny weren't educated in the same way as Aegon, but I can guess. Aegon, as the true heir** (see below), needed protection and Viserys and Dany were useful decoys, visible targets for Robert's ire that diverted him from looking for hidden ones.

In the case of inheriting power, it follows the first son, otherwise Stannis would have been the heir even if Joffrey had been Robert's. If there's a rule where the heir of the deceased heir is overlooked in favour of the heir's brother, I haven't noticed it, not in the books. (I'll admit that I may have missed it, so would be grateful if the relevant paragraphs could be identified.)


In the UK, some of whose history was one inspiration for ASoIaF, the crown can be inherited through dead intermediary once-heirs. If Prince Charles had died before his mother, and the Queen had died before Prince William came of age, we would have had a King William (and a regency) not a King Andrew.


** - Assuming he is the real Aegon.

[I, Brian]

Re: Dany & Aegon - there's also the idea of not keeping all of your eggs in one basket. There would be little reason for Varys to invest so much in one Targ heir when there are so many natural ways they could die.

And if Varys was able to switch one of the babies, isn't it possible he also switched the other? Curious, though, how and when the switch took place - as soon as the gates were opened to Tywin?

[No One]

I've only just finished the book yesterday and am letting things sink in, but I agree with most/all of Brian's highlights above.

I'm glad to see the evidence of a storyline that's begun to taper - contrary to suggestions that GRRM has lost the plot and will require more than 7 books to complete the series.

Also, it can't have been easy to discipline the flow of events and revelations to try and quench the fans' thirst for answers and drama, which imo this book was never going to do (given the outline of 7 books and the title of the next book, that would be the one for major revelations and confrontations). So good on George for staying true to the story I say.

[HeirOfArryn]

ok Im new to posting but Ive been following these boards for the a while and I just noticed a few things in ADWD that I havent seen here.
1. when Tyrion and co were traveling down the sorrows right before they ran into The Kingfisher (the other barge) Tyrion notices this
"The drowned city was all around them. A half-seen shape flapped by overhead, pale leathery wings beating at the fog. The dwarf craned his head around to get a better look, but the thing was gone as suddenly as it had appeared."
What do you all make of this? I thought of Drogon but the book never mentioned him being spotted that far west and what would he be doing with them? smelling out his own kind?
2. I think Jon is dead for real. It pains me to say this but IIRC Thoros discovered how to revive Berric Donadarrion by accident and as far as I can tell, he is the only one who knows how to do that (other that Donadarrion but he sacrificed himself for cat, which was a bad move in my opinion)

and @JOVANENAD and Ursa major succession rules are discussed when first Stevron Frey, Lord Walder's eldest son, then Ryman Frey, Stevron's eldest son, were killed and the succession of The Twins passed to Edwyn Frey, Ryman's eldest. showing that sons come before brothers in the line of succession.

[HareBrain]

I finished DwD a couple of days ago, and although I didn't skim much of it and enjoyed reading most of it, I wasn't all that impressed with it as a story, not even as part of a longer story. Probably if I'd been able to go straight on to WoW, I would have looked upon DwD's flaws more charitably (as long as WoW redressed them), but as it is, I find it hard to disagree with a lot of the 2- and 3-star reviews on Amazon.

One thing I find interesting, though, is that it seems to be a book written for the age of the internet forum. There's far too much stuff in it for any one reader to keep track of all the foreshadowings and hints and history, unless they're prepared to keep copious notes. It needs a collective consciousness to make sense of what's going on in the background. And because of that, I think ASOIF disproportionately suits fans who are prepared to invest time in talking about it with others. Of course it's only right and proper that they should get more out of it than a casual reader, but it's starting to feel to me like a videogame where a high proportion of the good stuff is only available after you've already finished it once.

[Culhwch]

Interesting point, HB, and valid, I think. I'd never thought of it like that before...

I finished Dance a couple of nights back now, and I'm trying to decide how I feel about it. I really just don't know how far we progressed. So much filler. Interesting, well-written filler, as far as that goes, but it took a long time for anything really significant to happen.

What did we get? Tyrion travels towards Dany, doesn't quite make it. Meets Aegon, who is also travelling towards Dany, but doesn't make it. Goes to Westeros, immediately becomes something of a prat. Victarion travels towards Dany, doesn't make it, gets a new hand. Quentyn travels towards Dany, makes it, dies. Dany annoys pretty much everyone, brings ruin upon the city she is trying to save, locks her dragons up, and winds up still in bloody Meereen (or close enough) at the end. Jon negotiates with wildlings, negotiates some more with wildlings, lets wildlings through the Wall, angers most of his underlings, dies. Stannis decides to fight the Boltons, heads to Winterfell, doesn't quite make it. There was a lot of not quite making it in this book.

Although our visits with him were brief, at least Bran made it to where he was going. Arya too, to some degree. Jaime and Cersei appeared but made little progress. Davos's chapters were interesting - good to see that I was correct in my assumptions that his 'death' was all a Manderly ploy - but he has ever been my favourite character. Mance’s appearance in Winterfell was likewise interesting, and I wonder at his motivations in trying to save fake Arya (poor Jeyne, I felt sorry for her). Does he feel some sense of duty to Jon? I can’t think why – although does he know Jon sent his son away? Val knows, but did Val know Rattleshirt was Mance?

I do wonder where Martin goes from here. After two such expansive volumes as Feast and Dance, he is really going to need to reel everything in to finish in another two. I just don't know if that's possible (and it seems he doesn't, either). I'd be curious to know whether the storylines are continuing in the same direction as they were when there was to be a five-year gap after Storm. There would have to have been some changes - certainly Jon couldn't have 'died' off-screen, unless that was intended to happen later in the piece and was brought forward. Was Rickon to re-emerge as if from the dead (as Aegon has) to become the last Stark in the North? Thinking about this kind of makes me wonder if Martin did lose the threads of his original story, and is either trying to write his way back to it, or write his way to a satisfying alternate ending.

Still, I can't wait for tWoW. Hope it isn't a long wait...

[Ursa major]

Originally Posted by HareBrain

Of course it's only right and proper that they should get more out of it than a casual reader, but it's starting to feel to me like a videogame where a high proportion of the good stuff is only available after you've already finished it once.

Except that not even GRRM has read it (i.e. the whole of ASoIaF) through once. And a lot of the threads here** are based, as they must be, on ignorance, in that they involve debates about what this and that phrase or idea in one of the books might come to mean.

Now while I can see this could still happen after the last book is published for some of the small, incidental stuff, most, if not all, of the big things will have been resolved. (We might then dislike*** these resolutions, and say so, but that's another matter.)




** - I've only been over to asoiaf.westeros.org a handful of times, and then only after finishing ADwD, so I can't comment on their threads

*** - I almost typed 'mislike'.

[HareBrain]

Originally Posted by Ursa major

Now while I can see this could still happen after the last book is published for some of the small, incidental stuff, most, if not all, of the big things will have been resolved. (We might then dislike*** these resolutions, and say so, but that's another matter.)

Sorry, my analogy was rubbish. I probably should have compared it to a game where a lot of the good stuff is in the side-quests rather than the main plot, though that probably still wouldn't get across what I meant.

I suspect that very few who read the whole series for the first time after it's completed will be as fanatical about it as those who are really into it now, because it lends itself to such interesting speculation, competing theories, etc. And that does make me wonder if the way it's been written has been influenced by that. A couple of reviews I read suggested that plot twist X had been included to scotch rumour Y, and so on. Whether that's true or not, GRRM was aware of all the rumours, which in some way makes it an interactive project -- not between him and casual readers, but him and those interested enough to spend lots of time discussing it. Which (with the possible exception of Harry Potter) must make it almost a first for a closed-end series.

(Sorry if that's not well expressed. Too tired to judge.)

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by HareBrain

One thing I find interesting, though, is that it seems to be a book written for the age of the internet forum. There's far too much stuff in it for any one reader to keep track of all the foreshadowings and hints and history, unless they're prepared to keep copious notes.

Think we've been here before with Tolkien, decades before the internet.

Originally Posted by Culhwch

Thinking about this kind of makes me wonder if Martin did lose the threads of his original story, and is either trying to write his way back to it, or write his way to a satisfying alternate ending.

This is very much what I got from reading ADWD, hence a particular reason for my liking it. As observed before, it didn't feel like it reached an "ending" but at least if felt as if it was trying to move back in that direction.

[viZion]

I finally finished the book last night. I wasn't disappointed but I wasn't satisfied, either. Like Culhwch points out, there's a lot of "not quite making it" in this book. After 6 years of writing this thing I thought the writing would be a lot tighter as well. Really, all that time and his editors still couldn't cut that thing down a bit? There was a lot of information that really didn't add anything to the story or the backstory. I'm not even talking about the expansive descriptions of food, either. There was one Tyrion chapter and one Daenerys chapter that could have been deleted entirely and nothing at all would have been lost from the story.

I think I liked Theon's chapters best in this book. Arya is always interesting to me, too. I also loved Barristan's chapters. Excellent choice to have him as a POV since he's so full of interesting AND relevant backstory. Bran didn't bore me to tears like he usually does so that's cool. I actually wish we could have gotten at least one more Bran chapter so that maybe we'd get a clearer idea of exactly what he's learning to become.

Jon's chapters were ok and I actually didn't mind that he was making tons of mistakes. It fits with his character. He's trying to be his father, his uncle Ben, and the leader of the Night's Watch all in one and those roles just don't complement each other. To be honest, I hope he dies and stays dead because GRRM seems to be getting to the point where it's obvious who is going to live. That was never the case in the first three books and I miss it.

Dany was easily the most frustrating character. Stupid mistake after stupid mistake. I don't think she made one wise decision. Statistically, she should have blundered into at least one wise decision but she continued to defy the odds. She used to be one of my favorite characters but somehow she became really weak in the 11 years since we last saw her. I she takes Khal Jhoqo's khalasar and finally gets the heck out of Meereen. The whole Meereen storyline seems like a big waste of time unless, instead of GRRM showing how Dany learns to be a Queen there, he's actually showing how she learns how NOT to be a Queen there. Even so, I wish that story arc would have resolved itself in this book and ended with Dany finally on her way back to Westeros to confront Aegon.

[HareBrain]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Think we've been here before with Tolkien, decades before the internet.

I think there's a huge difference between LOTR and ASOIF in this respect. It's hard to tell for sure, because I first read LOTR so long ago, but my impression is that it was fairly obvious, even on a first reading, which facts were "trivial" (intended only to enrich the world and background), and which were essential to a full understanding of the plot. When Aragorn makes his comment about Queen Beruthiel, it seems clear it's background colour only, and not something which, if remembered, will shed light on an obscure aspect of Minas Tirith politics. In ASOIF, for better or worse, you just can't tell.

There is, of course, a huge amount of background info that Tolkien wrote, and which does illuminate the events in the main story. But it's kept out of the way in the appendices (and in the Silmarillion) and is entirely optional.