A Dance with Dragons - Discussion - WARNING: SPOILERS!

[IlliferThePenniless]

I still can't figure why a faceless man would be in oldtown, and why kill Pate? Don't they only kill who people pray for them to kill? Isn't that their ONLY motivation?

I'm actually pretty proud that I caught the answer to this but...

While Tyrion is musing about the dragon books he wishes he could access

Which actually makes a ton of sense. Braavos was founded by slaves escaped from Valyria. The worship of the many faced god comes from those slave pits. I think the Braavosi in general and the faceless men specifically would be very opposed to the return of dragons to the world and all that implies...

I think they want to steal a book that will detail how one kills a dragon. A book the citadel has locked away deep in its bowels.

Recall, before he killed Pate the alchemist needed a master key to the citadel. I think it all fits pretty neatly....

[Needle]

I will try hard to make my thoughts here make sense, bear with me a second!


I have long felt that the 3 heads are Dany, Jon, and Tyrion. I am now beginning to think that is not true, that Tyrion may play an even bigger part!


Dolorous Edd says “Personally I'm now leaning towards them both being AA.As Aemon said, the words got lost in translation so they were all looking for a prince who was promised, instead of a princess. Maybe it's Princes! AA's soul is in THREE bodies! If the dragon's are lightbringer, and the dragon has 3 heads, how can there be only 1 TPWWP? The only hitch now is that 3 doesn't go into 4, so assuming Boaz' formerly crazy but now inspired theory on Tyrion being a targ is true, 1 of those 3 or Aegon will have to die.



I believe you have hit on it here Edd but no one has to die, if make the somewhat shaky assumption that Aegon is Aegon, the 3 heads become for me- Dany, Jon, and Aegon. Here is where Tyrion comes in, Dany has discovered that dragons, even when they like you, are impossible to control, and let’s face it we are running out of time. Victarion is on his way to Dany with the horn which controls dragons!

"Dragons," Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros... "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."
It is said a mortal man can not blow the horn and survive, the Targs are blood of the dragon, ie. Not mortal men! If Tyrion is a Targ (and I firmly believe he is) he can blow the horn. Someone has to run this show when battle is begun, who better than Tyrion! No one say I!

Jon still fits in here just fine, (He is not dead!) He will not need to leave the wall to fulfill this. We all know the coming battle is for the realms of men, all the fighting amongst men is when all is said and done irrelevant.


To quote Dolorous Edd once again “Also, why do people think that Jon's death will mean he'll leave the watch? If he does get Thoros'd I get the fact that technically his watch will have ended, but I don't think that will matter for Jon. He didn't ultimately decline Winterfell because of his vows, he declined it because he realised he didn't belong there. Even if he is a bastard or even trueborn-targ I don't think he'll go rushing off to King's Landing either. The Wall is HIS.”

Mel to Jon about wall
“this is my place as it is yours, and soon enough you may have grave need of me.”

“Skulls. A thousand skulls, and the bastard boy again. Jon Snow...
Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow.”

The final battle must be at the Wall! If the Others get beyond it there will be no stopping them.


THE WALL IS YOURS JON SNOW!

[Mesanna]

I like what you're thinking Needle, except wouldn't it make more sense for Jon to blow the horn? I know the Targs think they're gods, but how are they not mortal men/women? Surely Jaime and Khal Drogo proved the opposite. Now Jon on the other hand, assuming he's resurrected by Mel, wouldn't really be a mortal man. So he could blow the horn safely, with Aegon, Dany & Tyrion as the dragon riders.

I'm wondering about Dany at the end though. She thinks earlier that the Targs never get ill, then at the end she's showing all the symptoms of the flux. What are we to make of that? It would be so GRRM to kill off Dany in the next book, and then we're back to Aegon, Tyrion and Jon!

[Bazza]

Originally Posted by Dolorous Edd

Also, why do people think that Jon's death will mean he'll leave the watch? If he does get Thoros'd I get the fact that technically his watch will have ended, but I don't think that will matter for Jon. He didn't ultimately decline Winterfell because of his vows, he declined it because he realised he didn't belong there. Even if he is a bastard or even trueborn-targ I don't think he'll go rushing off to King's Landing either. The Wall is HIS. It's his because there was no one else to take it. Have Randyll Tarly or Bronze Yohn suddenly decided to take the black? No, then who the hell would take his place? Ignoring all that, from a simple storytelling perspective George needs someone to act as window to the events on the wall when the other's finally bloody attack the damned thing, so Jon is not going anywhere. If he stays, it must be as LC. It isn't going to be too great for Lord Commander Pyp having his not-dead predecessor looking over his shoulder whilst he tries to stave off the invasion.

Well he did refuse Winterfell and swore to take no part in the war. But throughout ADWD he's been slowly convincing himself that helping Stannis is the right thing to do. He does have some beef with the current authority of the North and Westeros as a whole. He helps Stannis at first with advice, then with men (hill tribes), and the bastard of Bolton is roosting in his home castle keeping his sister prisoner (so he thinks). I think he slowly is leaning more towards helping the realm, and by the end he's finally decided to leave the Wall to attack Bolton. Whether for personal reasons, or he may have decided being Lord Commander of the Watch isn't good enough, he needs to heal the North to help defend the wall. He knows he needs more men, he's got the wildlings but what he really needs is disciplined soldiers. It sounds like he's going back on his first decision and wants to liberate the North.

[Bazza]

Originally Posted by Mesanna

I'm wondering about Dany at the end though. She thinks earlier that the Targs never get ill, then at the end she's showing all the symptoms of the flux. What are we to make of that? It would be so GRRM to kill off Dany in the next book, and then we're back to Aegon, Tyrion and Jon!

I think it was just her time of the month and being malnourished though and not the flux.

What if there were three heads of the dragon AND the Prince That Was Promised? Then all 4 can live!

[Gry Wnd]

In his last chapter he basically lost it because he stayed put while his whole family died and Arya was next. But I do think he feels the need to defend the wall/north.

Since he needs to do both I'm guessing the wall goes down and he takes everyone to the neck - hopefully dealing with the Boltons on the way. Then he meets up with the north and howland reed and finds out who he is- I assume he'll be curious if he lives.

It's just the only way to settle the whole mess up there. The food situation though...

[svalbard]

I have not read any of the posts on this thread yet, because I only purchased the boo yesterday and am 500 pages into it so far. I just had to post and say YEEHAH!

I opened the book with shaking hands, like an alcoholic who has falling off the wagon. It is living up to all my expectations so far and even more so now that I know Davos is not dead(not that I thought he was anyway).

[Dolorous Edd]

Originally Posted by Bazza

Well he did refuse Winterfell and swore to take no part in the war. But throughout ADWD he's been slowly convincing himself that helping Stannis is the right thing to do. He does have some beef with the current authority of the North and Westeros as a whole. He helps Stannis at first with advice, then with men (hill tribes), and the bastard of Bolton is roosting in his home castle keeping his sister prisoner (so he thinks). I think he slowly is leaning more towards helping the realm, and by the end he's finally decided to leave the Wall to attack Bolton. Whether for personal reasons, or he may have decided being Lord Commander of the Watch isn't good enough, he needs to heal the North to help defend the wall. He knows he needs more men, he's got the wildlings but what he really needs is disciplined soldiers. It sounds like he's going back on his first decision and wants to liberate the North.

I see what you're saying, but the way I read it was Bolton gave him an ultimatum: Give me the following things or I will come and root them out and destroy you and the watch to get them. I'm sure he'd love to spill some Bolton blood to avenge his family, but he didn't try to save Arya when he heard she was going to be married off to a the psychotic son of the man who murdered his brother. He only accepted the gauntlet because it was a choice of facing him alone, or having the watch drawn into it as well.

[IlliferThePenniless]

That's how it seemed to me. The rescuing his sister thing doesn't really make any sense as the letter says that Ramsey doesn't have her. To which Jon would just say "Yay!"

On a semi-related note, what does everybody think Ramsey wanted from the letter? I can't really game out a scenario where the Boltons have firm control and it doesn't make any sense that GRRM would have skipped such a big battle, one with two PoVs present. So if we accept that there wasn't a seven day battle and Stannis isn't dead what do we think actually happened. Does Ramsey have Stannis' sword as part of a Manderley scheme, or is he just making the whole thing up.

And what does he want Jon to do in response to his letter? He can't that that the lord commander will actually turn over "Arya" and Reek. So what does he want?

[Needle]

Originally Posted by Mesanna

I like what you're thinking Needle, except wouldn't it make more sense for Jon to blow the horn? I know the Targs think they're gods, but how are they not mortal men/women? Surely Jaime and Khal Drogo proved the opposite. Now Jon on the other hand, assuming he's resurrected by Mel, wouldn't really be a mortal man. So he could blow the horn safely, with Aegon, Dany & Tyrion as the dragon riders.

I'm wondering about Dany at the end though. She thinks earlier that the Targs never get ill, then at the end she's showing all the symptoms of the flux. What are we to make of that? It would be so GRRM to kill off Dany in the next book, and then we're back to Aegon, Tyrion and Jon!

I guess it's possible that Jon could blow the horn, even probable when I think about it.

As for the mortal men thing, it is just a way of saying they are different, obviously they are mortal or the world would be swamped with Targs! But the guy who blew it last burned from the inside out and Dany has shown us though that she at least can withstand fire.

As much as I hate to admit it you may also be right about GRRM making us cheer for Dany and then kill her!

Originally Posted by IlliferThePenniless

That's how it seemed to me. The rescuing his sister thing doesn't really make any sense as the letter says that Ramsey doesn't have her. To which Jon would just say "Yay!"

On a semi-related note, what does everybody think Ramsey wanted from the letter? I can't really game out a scenario where the Boltons have firm control and it doesn't make any sense that GRRM would have skipped such a big battle, one with two PoVs present. So if we accept that there wasn't a seven day battle and Stannis isn't dead what do we think actually happened. Does Ramsey have Stannis' sword as part of a Manderley scheme, or is he just making the whole thing up.

And what does he want Jon to do in response to his letter? He can't that that the lord commander will actually turn over "Arya" and Reek. So what does he want?

I think Ramsey is just making stuff up! Someone needs to kill him already (kinda cheering for Theon here!)Cause we are pretty sure Stannis isn't dead (Mel would probably know if he was) he may well have Mance, as far as we know he was still in the castle when Theon and Jeyne escaped.

[Tansy]

Maybe Mance has cooked up some scheme and convinced Roose to play along, maybe he is hoping the widlings come rescue him before he is flayed?

[Mesanna]

On thinking back over the book, I realise that GRRM has done it again. Twice!

I didn't like Jaime to start, then I loved him and he became my favourite character.

I have despised Theon from the beginning and now I feel sorry for him. I think he's toast in the long term, but he's already trying to redeem himself for his past actions, by saving "Arya". If Jon goes to Stannis, he'll meet Theon who can tell him that Bran and Rickon aren't dead. If word gets out that there are two male Stark heirs still alive, hopefully the Boltons will lose what support they have.

I also felt sorry for Cersei. Yes she's still vain and arrogant, but when she realised on her walk of shame that she was just another ageing woman with saggy boobs and stretch marks, and Jaime only told her she was beautiful because he loved her, I actually felt quite bad for her. Though, if Cersei wins at her trial, I wouldn't rule her out yet. Her plotting and scheming will grow back along with her hair.

[simonkage]

It is quite within Mellsandes power to heal jon. remember the red priest and dondarrion?

[simonkage]

If Jon realy is dead after all he has nobley fought to accomplish I will be REALY PISSED!!!!

[Liopleurodon]

Random thought/question:

Given the relevation to Bran about many of the ravens in that cave up north, do any of yall think there is something more to Mormonts Raven than that meets the eye?

I find it interesting that the raven follows only the Lord Commander (First Mormont then Jon). Also, consider the passage just before Jon embarked on the course of events that would lead to the wildings coming through the wall:

"He rose and dressed in darkness, as Mormont's raven muttered across the room. "Corn," the bird said, and, "King," and, "Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow." That was queer. The bird has never said his full name before, as best Jon could recall."

It's as if the bird knows something we do not. As if, a peice of some former person lingers within the raven and the bird has a fragment of an actual mind.