A Dance with Dragons - Discussion - WARNING: SPOILERS!

[juleska]

"I would have thought that going backwards would be the last thing that this book needs, but I am only a young girl and know little of the ways of story advancement."

LOL!!

[Dogmatix]

Ever since I thought Jon was AA (which has been a good while now) I have always thought that Jon would warg into Snow to survive a "death" and then warg back into his body. So on the record, that is my best bet as to what will happen with his cliffhanger. However, I am not totally convinced. Especially after my last two re-reads. I just can't shake the first chapter (Varamyr) and Jon's development over the whole book, especially his last chapter. So let's run with it.

I am convinced, however, that we must read Jon Snow's final POV chapter in light of the first chapter of the book. The symmetry is all there. If you are skeptical, just read the first chapter, then all of Jon's POVs in one sitting. It seems pretty clear that Varamyr's chapter is to lay the foundation for Jon's choosing of his second life, and there are some disturbing hints at what that second life might be.

So what are my assumptions (besides the one I stated above):

1. Jon is dead. His second life will be unique.

If Jon's story is connected to Varamyr's then I would say yes. Definitely. You have to experience true death in order to have your second life. In Varamyr's chapter the cold is a reference to death, not the cellars, not the Others showing up, not almost death - but death. True death. The death that leads to second life. The reason that the statement he didn't feel the fourth knife isn't a violation of POV is because Jon is in the second life out of body state. He can see himself. The reason he whisper's Ghost is he is "seeing" or connecting to possible warging targets like Varamyr did. This has a great symmetry with the prophecies of AA being reborn amidst smoke and salt. Second life. AA reborn. Again, it is very powerfully connected. This leads to me think that Jon's death is real, and that his second life will be substantially unique given his role in the story. This is not even to mention Aemon's "kill the boy, become the man" foreshadowing.

2. Our narrators are mostly reliable.

This is the real problem for Needle's theory. GRRM would violate everything he cares about in storytelling to make the "2 hour gap" about a convoluted glamor-warg-plot to secure Jon's safety (as much as I love that theory). We have had semi-unreliable narrators, but nothing so horrible. It would be horrific writing. Cheap. Non-Martinian. What we see is what we get for the most part.

3. Jon's death scene and its resolution will tie together all the elements GRMM has been building for us in Jon's story.

The absence of the Queen. The absence of her knights. The plotting of the Night's Watch. The cellars. Mel's visions / interest in Snow. The mysterious dream Jon had (is particularly interesting).

So given these assumptions, what are the options?

1. Ghost.

Ghost is a likely option. We learn about how there is a choice involved in the second life as Varamyrs weighs his options during his death. Varamyr is taken "out of body" and chooses old One Eye (out of many options) for his second life. I think this is part of what we see with Jon when he whispers, "Ghost". But if this is a true second life I don't think Jon will choose Ghost. I think the queensmen knights / Night's Watch have killed or are also killing Ghost (which is why the other knights are absent and not just Sir Patrek). There is certainly evidence/hints for it in the last couple of chapters and in the story. Also, when the Starks don't listen to their direwolves, it all goes bad. Especially for the wolves. It is possible the knights, the queen and the remaining crows have schemed to change the situation at the wall in all of their favors. If fact, I don't think Bowen goes through with the assassination UNLESS the knights are in on it as well. Otherwise, they cannot overpower the wildlings there with Tormund, and the Snow sympathizers. Think about it. The Queen wants Val and a different Lord Commander. Sir Patrek wants Val. Bowen Marsh and others want Jon dead and the Wall restored to "normal". And one thing no one has mentioned on any forums I've frequented is this simple reality: any half descent scheme to kill Jon, has to include killing Ghost as well. I feel dirty for typing it, but it is true. Sadly, Jon has Ghost locked up in a confined space. If GRMM wants us to feel pain at Jon's "resurrection" but not the pain of losing Jon forever, the way to do it is to take the direwolf. One way for Jon to "kill the boy" is through losing the only family he has had on the wall, his Ghost.

Regardless of my musings, keeping in mind that I think the text leads us to a true second life coming for Jon and not just a haha warg'd out, heal me up, warg back, then Ghost is not possible. Jon is too important as a POV, etc to simply be in Ghost for the rest of the story.

2. Not Wun Wun, the Boar or any human nearby.

For similar reasons above and for abomination rules these are not true second life options. In the first chapter we read that eventually, if you second life into an animal, over time you lose yourself in that animal eventually. You merge / their psyche takes over eventually. So this wouldn't be possible for Jon.

3. The dead corpses in the cells.

So is there another option that is not Ghost, not Wun Wun, nor a human that Jon could, in his desperation, warg into? Yes. One of the wight bodies in the cellar. Perfectly preserved and not just rotting away like his own corpse would. Potentially, Jon wouldn't even have to "lose" himself eventually in this second life. He could inhabit this new body for good. It also makes sense of his dream where he is AA fighting the Others as they scramble up the Wall, he looks like himself, but different, "armored in black ice" (like an Other?) wielding his a flaming sword.

I think it is a stretch, and I personally hope for a Ghost warg - back into his own body once it has recovered. But for some reason this makes more sense to me every time I read it. AND I think this would account for the kinds of changes that need to happen to Jon's character in just 2 books to make him the bad ass he needs to be, the hardening of his resolve to be AA.

Thoughts?

[juleska]

You feel dirty for typing that Ghost may have to be killed, I feel dirty for reading it. I don't even want to think about that. I may not be able to forgive Martin if he keeps killing off all their wolves. What happened to Lady and Grey Wind was bad enough.

[ArstenWhitebeard]

You pose some interesting points Dogmatix, and as much as I hate to think you are right about Ghost, I think you are right about Ghost.

My problem with Jon warging into a body in the Ice cells is this...

Its a Dead Body in a Cell.

Unless he had the forthought to put it somewhere else (not chained up) or knew enough to tell someone he might be warging into it, it would not be a good place to be.

A) its chained up in a cell
B) It's a Dead body. Which means as soon as he is in there and starts walking around, everyone is going to start yelling "Burn it!, Kill it with fire!" Nobody is going to take the time to start asking it questions, not Queens Men, or Wildlings, or NW men, loyal or not.

So if we are sumitting to the possibility that he is warging into one of the dead bodies, then he would have had to plan it beforehand, which leads to all the same arguments about Needles theory

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

I agree with Arsten. It's most likely that Jon will have done something about the corpses if he counted on getting stabbed.

[Needle]

Originally Posted by viZion

Check out this great review for ADWD. It's pretty funny:

http://www.amazon.com/review/RQMHSVD...cm_cr_rdp_perm

Oh my, this is too funny!! Love it! Sadly it's kinda true too!

[Dogmatix]

Originally Posted by ArstenWhitebeard

So if we are sumitting to the possibility that he is warging into one of the dead bodies, then he would have had to plan it beforehand, which leads to all the same arguments about Needles theory

I don't think it is planned. If Jon is dying and he can't warg into Ghost, and doesn't want to warg into the boar, Wun Wun or humans, what if he is forced to go into one of them or perish for good? At the very least, he may warg into them temporarily instead of Ghost to survive. This could give him the insight he needs to destroy or get an upper hand over the Others. What would we give to see the enemy POV from within one of the wights? What could Jon learn from this? How they communicate? Who is leading? Impressions of a goal, plan or greater understanding of the Others?

It has potential, especially since, you know, Ghost is dead.

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Im not saying he couldn't do it, or that he had planned to do it. I'm just saying it would not be the best strategic option, and he would then need to go somewhere from there. He would need to warg into something else, because he isn't walking out of that cell.

He could reside in there temporarily untill Mel breathes life back into his body or something.

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

Here's another thing...Would Melisandre be more powerful than Thoros?

[ArstenWhitebeard]

probably, but who knows. theres alot of discussion on whether different red priests are better at/have more power in, different skills. Like Mel is good at seeing vision in the flames and Moqorro is good at healing and Thoros can breathe Life.

I also want to point out that we don't know if Thoros' trick worked on anyone but Berric. I think if it had, the Brotherhood without Banners would be the most powerful army out there (so long as Thoros didn't Die)

He could also have brought back their enemies and said "now you fight for us, or we kill you again, only this time, not so quick." and if people disagreed, they could be sacrificed to the Red God, Slow Roast style.

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

Arsten, your brilliance is only matched by your cruelty.

I like you.

[juleska]

Originally Posted by Dogmatix

It has potential, especially since, you know, Ghost is dead.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Thanks! I pride myself on my Cruelty... I mean brilliance!

[viZion]

Originally Posted by ArstenWhitebeard

I also want to point out that we don't know if Thoros' trick worked on anyone but Berric. I think if it had, the Brotherhood without Banners would be the most powerful army out there (so long as Thoros didn't Die)

It's possible I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here but his "trick" worked on Catelyn as well. Also, he physically changed every time he performed the Breath of Life, becoming "older" and weaker each time. Remember, he was a jolly fat monk when we first met him and by the time Brienne sees him in AFFC, he looks ancient and is nothing but skin and bones. Brienne barely recognizes him. My point is that eventually performing resurrections is going to kill him and that it will happen sooner than later. No chance for the Brotherhood to become the most powerful army unless they had a separate army of Thoros types backing them up.

[Boaz]

Dogmatix, Welcome.

I tend to agree with Varamyr's mentor... warging into another person is wrong. Bran's a kid, he does not know any better and Hodor's basically defenseless anyway.

But on to Jon... A true and unique second life by warging into a dead body would truly be something. Remind me who these bodies are... Rangers or Wildlings? But don't you think that someone would notice if a body was up and walking around again? He'd have to hightail it out of there. He'd be a loner. He'd be a former brother of the NW forced to live alone north of the wall. And he'd have warging powers to have the forest critters help him.... hmmmmm, sounds like Coldhands.