A Dance with Dragons - Discussion - WARNING: SPOILERS!

[davosj11]

Just finished the series game to dragons. So what better way to play the waiting game than to join up with a forum!

So is Melisandre possibly the worst advisor ever?? Did any of her visions she discussed with Snow actually apply to him?? I'm guessing the 'grey girl on the old horse' vision was a reference to the flux in Mereen etc.? NOT Arya. Leaving Mance possibly trapped in Winterfell with Ramsay??

Hopefully Victarion does better with Maqorro

[Keebs411]

Originally Posted by davosj11

Just finished the series game to dragons. So what better way to play the waiting game than to join up with a forum!

So is Melisandre possibly the worst advisor ever?? Did any of her visions she discussed with Snow actually apply to him?? I'm guessing the 'grey girl on the old horse' vision was a reference to the flux in Mereen etc.? NOT Arya. Leaving Mance possibly trapped in Winterfell with Ramsay??

Hopefully Victarion does better with Maqorro

Welcome . You are correct mel does have some trouble reading her visions. But they do come true for the most but just no they was she interpets them. For exsample the girl on a grey old horse doea shoq up. She is basically like a stark cousin. A karstark i belive. She is the girl who arrives because she was fleeing the forced marrige to her uncle. There is a thread on here actually in regaurds to jon and mel specifically if you wanna check it out ,which was actually the thread that 1st brought me to this forum in it ull find alot of dicussion in regaurds to mel her role with jon and how her visions play out

[Boaz]

Originally Posted by davosj11

Just finished the series game to dragons. So what better way to play the waiting game than to join up with a forum!

davosj11, Welcome. There is no better way... it is known. I've posted this before, but I'll reiterate here... Enjoy the time between books. Enjoy the anticipation because it won't last. Right now, there are nineteen people viewing the forums of the other forty-four authors on the Chronicles Network... while there are seventy-one viewing currently viewing the Martin forum. That's insane! Tolkien, King, Rowling, Clarke, Herbert, Jordan, MacCaffrey, and Heinlein have sold gajillions of books and had their works turned into megamovies, yet all the action is here. Once this series is done, so too is this forum. So savor the theories, the guessing, and the opinions.

SPOILER ALERT for ADWD.

One thing we do know about Melisandre is that she sees visions concerning people and situationa about which she wants to know. She foresaw Cressen's and Davos' attempts upon her own life. She saw Renly's troops joining Stannis. She most likely saw Ygritte saying "You know nothing, Jon Snow." But she misses things if she's not looking. She missed Edric Storm leaving. She also missed Aemon, Gilly, and Mance's son leaving. She is concerned with Stannis, the Wall, the North, Mance, Jon, The Other, and the current politics of Westeros. So why would she see visions of disease in Mereen?

I loaned my book out so I do not remember her name, but the vision of the girl on the horse was that of the Umber girl fleeing Hothor "Whoresbane" Umber to avoid losing her lands... right? The girl affects the politics of the North, Stannis' alliances, and the Wildlings (I think she marries Styr's son). Melisandre either lies or deludes herself into thinking this girl is Arya and she blames her mistake on her ability to fathom the mind of Rh'llor. She sends Mance to recover this girl, but he misses her trail and picks up on the trail of Jeyne Poole posing as Arya for the benefits of Houses Lannister and Bolton.

At least that was my interpretation...

[davosj11]

Thankyou for the welcomes. Its welcoming to break bread with the honored hosts!

But yes I think you are right in regards to Melisandre and her concerns with the North. I think I skipped the obvious clues and looked at the 'Pale Mare' references (maybe due to the alternating chapters between Jon and Dani). I do wonder how Melisandre maintains her confidence in her belief in Stannis as Azor Ahai while at the Wall where her powers are stronger. Although she could well be right, GRRM provides plenty of evidence against Stannis' new title through Aemon's theory.

I also have an inkling that Varys still serves a certain someone besides the realm. It's difficult to see only Varys and Illyrio are behind these grand plans to de-throne the Lannisters. Surely there is a higher power in play. Smells like the work of Doran Martell to me

[The Imp]

Originally Posted by davosj11

Thankyou for the welcomes. Its welcoming to break bread with the honored hosts!

But yes I think you are right in regards to Melisandre and her concerns with the North. I think I skipped the obvious clues and looked at the 'Pale Mare' references (maybe due to the alternating chapters between Jon and Dani). I do wonder how Melisandre maintains her confidence in her belief in Stannis as Azor Ahai while at the Wall where her powers are stronger. Although she could well be right, GRRM provides plenty of evidence against Stannis' new title through Aemon's theory.

I also have an inkling that Varys still serves a certain someone besides the realm. It's difficult to see only Varys and Illyrio are behind these grand plans to de-throne the Lannisters. Surely there is a higher power in play. Smells like the work of Doran Martell to me

Welcome to Chrons

Wroking backwards, I disagree with the idea of a greater power controlling Varys and Illyrio. I do think that one or both of them jhas an association with the Faceless Men, maybe even "runs" them, but I don't think there's anyone that's been intorduced in the story so far that has the combination of wealth and political acumen that those two have. The folliwing paragraph suggests that Varys is not working for anyone in the 7 Kindoms (at least)

"I thought the crossbow fitting. You shared so much with Lord Tywin, why not that? Your niece will think the Tyrells had you murdered, mayhaps with the connivance of the Imp. The Tyrells will suspect her. Someone somewhere will find a way to blame the Dornishmen. Doubt, division, and mistrust will eat the very ground beneath your boy king, whilst Aegon raises his banner above Storm’s End and the lords of the realm gather round him."

As for melisandre, I think at some point in aDWD she finally figured out that her God was showing her AA when she was being given visions of Jon Snow. This leads me to believe that not only has she lost confidence in STannis, she will forsake him, and she has already forged an alliance with Jon.

[miss nausicaa]

Hi everyone, I'm new on this forum butI've been really interested by all these ideas and theories ^^
I've read the 5 books in a few months, and I think I need to re-read it because i've surely gone too fast, but I've got 1 (obsessive) question : can somebody remind me the story about a possible dragon in winterfell? Can't remember anything about it
thank you

[Boaz]

Originally Posted by davosj11

I do wonder how Melisandre maintains her confidence in her belief in Stannis as Azor Ahai

That's the crux!!! I wonder too. She has to know. She must know. Is she in that much denial? Or is she playing at something else? Either she's insane or she's a liar... and I think she must be lying.

miss nausicaa, let me be the first to say, "Welcome!" I came here seven years ago looking for information regarding Jon Snow's paternity.... I don't know where it's mentioned, but there is a rumor of a dragon mayhaps slumbering under Winterfell. If you'll recall in Catelyn's second chapter of AGOT, her chambers are directly above the hot springs upon which Winterfell is built. So her chambers are always warm, even in winter. There were also rumors regarding a dragon buried in The Wall and one sleeping under the castle on Dragonstone. Look for posts by TK-421 (our resident research monkey), Werthead and Raven (they seem to be actual friends with GRRM's editor, if not with The Man himself, but they rarely post), or Imp, Tywin, and Needle (our in house trivia champions) to clear this up for you.

Do you think this Winterfell dragon has somehow allowed the Starks to be warg sensitive? Just a thought.

If you'd like to find your way to other threads, we'd all love to get your impressions.

[Ursa major]

Originally Posted by miss nausicaa

...but I've got 1 (obsessive) question : can somebody remind me the story about a possible dragon in winterfell? Can't remember anything about it.

Welcome, miss nausicaa.

In Bran's last chapter in A Clash of Kings, he's having a wolf dream (i.e. he's seeing through Summer's eyes). The following text is from the third paragraph of that chapter:

The smoke and ash clouded his eyes, and in the sky he saw a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame. He bared his teeth, but then the snake was gone.

One has to assume that this text is there for a reason, and not necessarily only to provide a vivid picture of the sky above a burning Winterfell.

[juleska]

Originally Posted by miss nausicaa

Hi everyone, I'm new on this forum butI've been really interested by all these ideas and theories ^^
I've read the 5 books in a few months, and I think I need to re-read it because i've surely gone too fast, but I've got 1 (obsessive) question : can somebody remind me the story about a possible dragon in winterfell? Can't remember anything about it
thank you

Welcome to the chrons, nausicaa.

I've only read the series once through myself. I started reading AGOT again but my work has not permitted me to get through the series cover to cover again as I'd like, so don't feel bad, you're not the only one who feels like you need more time to digest it all.

Personally...having spent some time on this forum and other boards, I'm really excited about going back to re-read the books with those theories in mind. I think it will help me get more from the story the second go around.

[miss nausicaa]

Thanks for your welcomes !
I must admit I hadn't seen any hint of it while reading, but your quotes are actually quite intriguing... and the idea of a hidden "Stark" dragon is really attractive too !
Otherwise, for my thoughts in general, I quite agree with the theory that Jon is not dead (or won't stay dead, even if I would prefer if he doesn't die at all) : for example I remember a chapter with Arya POV, where, at the end, we are told the Dog's axe caught her in the head, and finally it's just the wooden part of the axe... When Martin wants to tell us somebody's dead, it's quite clear. I expect the same kind of thing here, I think he will survive his injuries... and I am always optimistic !
Still about Jon, for the part about AA reborn, I wonder if it's not a bit obvious... or at least too much "expected"....

[Stribog]

Originally Posted by The Imp

As for melisandre, I think at some point in aDWD she finally figured out that her God was showing her AA when she was being given visions of Jon Snow. This leads me to believe that not only has she lost confidence in STannis, she will forsake him, and she has already forged an alliance with Jon.

Helping him evade death, and standing by his side as AA reborn, what a glorious vision

[Ursa major]

Originally Posted by Stribog

...and standing by his side as AA reborn, what a glorious vision

I expect it's just me, but does anyone else see 'AA reborn' and think 'rechargeable battery'?

(And perhaps a stay in the Wall's ice cells could do Jon a world of good....)

[miss nausicaa]

"(And perhaps a stay in the Wall's ice cells could do Jon a world of good....) "







What do you mean???

[crooksy73]

Walls ice cream? A few 99's and a rest in a cell might work wonders! ha ha

[Ursa major]

Originally Posted by miss nausicaa

"(And perhaps a stay in the Wall's ice cells could do Jon a world of good....) "

What do you mean???

If you look at the bottom right of the post from which you're quoting, you'll see a couple of smileys. When I use the (not to mention finishing a sentence with an ellipsis and a full stop ("....")), it usually means there's a pun, or some word play, in there somewhere.

In this case, I'm playing on the meaning of the word, cell, which can also mean battery (or a part of a battery).

(On top of that, the Wall is meant to be guarded by spells, and we know magic is growing in ASoIaF, so there's also a hint of speculation that placing Jon's body in the ice cells - or having Jon's 'spirit' inhabiting (by warging) one of the bodies already in the ice cells** - might have some magical effect on Jon.)


** - You'll need to read Needle's theory about Jon.

.