A Dance with Dragons - Discussion - WARNING: SPOILERS!

[Needle]

Okay guess I will get this going! If you have not finished ADWD:

STOP NOW!! SPOILERS AHEAD!!! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!












I have to start with Arya (just cause she's my girl!)-

I KNEW she would not be permenaantly blind! There was not near enough of her to suit me, but I really didn't expect any so won't complain. She is moving right along in her training, seemingly much faster than the temple expected. Yet she is and will remain Aya of House Stark. When she leaves the temple for good her first stop will be on the steps to pick up Needle!

Jon. I really liked how Jon is trying to bring the wildlings into the fold, and suceeding for the most part. As he said, every dead wildling is another dead man to fight! I do not believe he will die, I like the idea I saw here that he will only die long enough for his watch to end! But let me say if he does, GRRM may need to be hunted down!

Dany- a little disappointed with her!! What a load a crap from her! To chain her only real children while tring to free everyone elses! Didn't like it, didn't buy it!! She redeemed herself (but only slightly) at the end. I guess she has had to learn everything the hard way but this took it too far IMHO. By the way I don't think Drogon will eat Khal Jhogo. The Dorathki follow strength, and nothing is stronger than a dragon right!!

Tyrion- My main man!! What a messed up journey that little man has had!! He will get to Dany I am sure of it, but it should have happened in ADWD! A bit too much of a messed up journey! He had better get to Dany soon! Somebody needs to set her straight!

Boaz, GRRM has definetly set the stage for your favorite theory! Tyrion TARG, TARG, TARG!!

A few complaints-

All the fuss over Quentin Martell, only to kill him off with no real addition to the story or apparent purpose!

Jaime and Brienne- WTF, WTF, WTF!! That's all I have to say about that!!!!

I have much more to say and will as time goes by! But I think i'm done for now! Will most likely start first re-read tomorrow!

Can't wait for more of you to finish so the conversation can begin! See you all soon!!

[Needle]

Thought I was done for the night till some of these posts came up so here I go again!



"Also, too: "Still, it may have been a blessing. He would have grown up to be a Frey" might be the best insult in the entire series. "

Love this! Agree completely!!

Boaz- Mance did not die badly-Rattleshirt did!! Illusion remember!!

Agree, don't think Arya was one of Kevan's assasins.

I don't think Doran actually means for Ser Balon to FIND Darkstar, just
endlessly hunt and maybe die?

I think Bowen may have had to get a pair from someone else! Don't now who
yet!

[Dornish First Sword]

I really don't think Doran cares if Balon finds Darkstar, I'm of the opinion Darkstar aint the type to try and rationalise his way out of it he will simply put Balon down without breaking a sweat if he comes knocking.

[IlliferThePenniless]

I was stunned at how poorly Mance faced death and by how easily Rattleshirt beat Jon.

It was also Mance who beat the crap out of Jon too, and I wonder if his link to R'hllor makes him stronger. Victarion's healed arm is stronger than ever it was, it's not inconceivable that Mance would be getting some extra juice as well.

Which I suppose has implications re: Jon and his almost certain resurrection.

[IlliferThePenniless]

What does everyone think about our new Targ? Got to be a fake right?

[Boaz]

I was stunned at how poorly Mance faced death and by how easily Rattleshirt beat Jon.

Thanks, guys. Oh, I got it... I just meant that I was shocked at these events before Melisandre revealed the truth.

ITP, He is Aegon. It is known.

[Needle]

Originally Posted by Boaz

ITP, He is Aegon. It is known.

It is known! Just glad he listened to Tyrion about how to proceed, going directly to Dany didn't work out so well for Quentyn!

[Tansy]

nah Varys substituted him, not sure what Varys is to the Targs but he's making sure they got a shot at the throne again, maybe we need the fire to fight the ice and prevent the long night?

Maybe Varys and a few others have the long term survival of the realm as their goal, or maybe not

The Aegon that was killed had his face mashed to a pulp so no-one would recognise him.

[Needle]

Originally Posted by Tansy

nah Varys substituted him, not sure what Varys is to the Targs but he's making sure they got a shot at the throne again, maybe we need the fire to fight the ice and prevent the long night?

Maybe Varys and a few others have the long term survival of the realm as their goal, or maybe not

The Aegon that was killed had his face mashed to a pulp so no-one would recognise him.

Can't even give a good guess as to what Varys is up too! Wouldn't we all feel silly if his motives are just what he says they are!

Now granted maybe they didn't count on there being actual dragons in the mix, but if Aegon is false the dragons will know! Making the whole thing, if it is a charade, pointless.

[Boaz]

Originally Posted by Needle

Can't even give a good guess as to what Varys is up too! Wouldn't we all feel silly if his motives are just what he says they are!

No way! If this was so, Varys would have had Viserys, Dany, and Aegon killed years ago and he would have supported Robert more vigorously. No... Varys is a Targaryen loyalist through and through.

[IlliferThePenniless]

No... Varys is a Targaryen loyalist through and through.

But the general consensus seems to be that he played a large role in driving The Mad King around the bend. Why? He might be a Blackfyre loyalist or something, but I don't think it can be as simple as Varys loves the Targs...

Is it just a coincidence that the story Illyrio tells Tyrion about how they got started ("he stole things, I offered to get them back") sounds an awful lot like what happened in Westeros? Why on earth would Mopatis give a damn about being Master of Coin? There's something going on here that I don't understand.

[Boaz]

Varys pushed Aerys II over the edge? Really? If that's true, then my theory that Varys is a long lost Targ or Blackfyre pretender might be true. Varys could be a nickname for Visaerys.

[IlliferThePenniless]

Chime in here guys, I don't really have any citations to hand, but I definitely have the impression that Varys fed Aerys' paranoia and probably intentionally (though, strangely, he did, allegedly, beg the king not to open his gates for Tywin). Am I totally making that up?

[Needle]

Originally Posted by IlliferThePenniless

Chime in here guys, I don't really have any citations to hand, but I definitely have the impression that Varys fed Aerys' paranoia and probably intentionally (though, strangely, he did, allegedly, beg the king not to open his gates for Tywin). Am I totally making that up?

I think you are correct that he fed Aerys' fears. In which case if he really is out to better the realm what better way to do it at that time than to remove Aerys, which would have given the throne to Rheagar! Yet loyalty to the Targs would have meant Aerys over Robert, so don't let Tywin in!

[Bazza]

Chime in here guys, I don't really have any citations to hand, but I definitely have the impression that Varys fed Aerys' paranoia and probably intentionally (though, strangely, he did, allegedly, beg the king not to open his gates for Tywin). Am I totally making that up?

I don't have quotes, but the line you are referring to goes something along the lines of: <Aerys was seeing traitors in every shadow, and Varys was pointing out the ones he missed.> But I don't think he was making him more paranoid than he already was, attempting to further his downfall.

Varys was, in the 2nd or 3rd book, described as the only one pleading with the king to NOT open the gates for Tywin Lannister during Robert's Rebellion because he knew his true purpose. He didn't want the city taken, and the Targaryens cast from power. I believe he truly was a Targaryen loyalist and was pointing out the real traitors.

Yes Aerys was the mad king, but according to Ser Barristan in ADWD he didn't start out that way. I think it was after his rescue from Duskendale and his time in the dungeons there that he started to go truly mad. And those he burned were high lords, not the scores of innocent townfolk that suffer during civil war. Varys is on record saying that the innocent are the ones who suffer when the high lords play the game of thrones. He doesn't want a game of thrones and could care less about the players. He wants the king on the throne who can command obedience from the realm and keep it from bleeding. He knows what it's like to be weak and alone, that's how he grew up. He doesn't want others to suffer as he did.

He knew that the Lannisters were aspiring for the throne, he knew this was lead to civil war, so he cultivated as many Targ options as possible to groom them to end the coming war and bring the realm together again.

<From the very last chapter in the book......SPOILERS if you haven't read it!>




We have little to go on to peg his true motives it's true. Everything he says is a lie, always playing the mummer. But in the very last chapter you see his contempt for the high lords and praises Aegon's return. He preaches how Aegon was brought up among the common folk, the ones he should be protecting, not using for his own games. There is no reason for him to lie to a dead man, it would not serve him.

"Whom do you truly serve Lord Varys?" - Eddard Stark

"The realm my lord. Someone must." - Lord Varys