A Dance with Dragons - Discussion - WARNING: SPOILERS!

[The Imp]

Originally Posted by BaDHaBiTt

True. The wall kicked ass most of the time, but still, the events unfolds too slowly.

I may be the only one who likes Stannis though.... I don't want him to be dead. And yes, Davos is also good.

I also liked Theon's parts, and Ramsay is a good villain, but maybe too shallow a character. But hey - sometimes we need someone to hate.

With all this said, I think that GRRM has set the pieces for the next book in place quite good, except for Dany who still is lost in nowhere. I hope she dies.

Your wish won't be granted though. Use your next two wisely.

Again, GRRM distracted his readers with the beautiful assistant showing them Meereen, showing it from all sides, and assuring us that there were no false walls or trap doors to escape through. Then he made Dany disappear, leaving Meereen, Daerio, The Unsullied, BFS, etc nehind.

Khal Jhaqo found Dany, or maybe one could say she found him. She now may have the strength of the Dothraki at her back, and will have the ability to smash The Harpys, Volantis, etc. She will use the Iron ships to bring her army of Unsullied and MAYBE the Dothraki to Westeros.

The story moved forward by leaps and bounds. Just ingnore that fat man behind the curtain telling you that the he's the real Oz.

[BaDHaBiTt]

in 1000 pages GRRM advanced the story on 2 important points. 1: Another Targaryen. 2: Jon Snow and Stannis are presumed dead.

Dany is still far from Westeros, Jaime did basically nothing, Tyrion rides a pig, Arya did nothing, Sansa wasn't even in the book, and Littlefinger was also absent.

Call me stupid, but that's not very much development for 1000 pages.

[juleska]

Lest you forget, this book was not intended to advance the story beyond AFFC, only to fill in the gaps not covered by Crows since those books occur concurrently. Jamie's appearance wasn't expected, so any news of him at all was a welcome surprise. Sansa and Littlefinger weren't in this one because their story was happening in Crows. I disagree that Arya did nothing. Far from it. In the previous stories she did a whole lot of travelling but very little growing....she was still the plucky, scrappy little kid from Winterfell running around with little more than a toy-sized sword. But from her arrival in Braavos her spiritual and emotional journey has been substantial, even if her physical journey has been a little stagnant.

As for Tyrion, while I admit I'm getting weary of the number of times he's been kidnapped now (what are we up to, 6?) I think his spiritual journey has also been substantial. In this book he's grown a great deal emotionally.

Dany is the only one who was truly stagnant, but I think it was building up to what happened in the end, and the next book for her should be absolutely explosive.

Also you are firmly in the minority for people who believe Stannis is dead, and many of us do not believe Jon is dead either.

If you were looking for 1000 pages of advancing on the story from the end of AFFC I'm afraid you would be disappointed, but then you were expecting something Martin never promised. We've known all along that ADWD would pick up from the end of Swords, not Crows.

[BaDHaBiTt]

Yes I knew that this would fill in the gaps. However, in MY opinion these gaps could have been filled in about 200 pages. The rest could have been advancing. I mean, about halfway in the book the story caught up with the previous book, yet nothing happened.

And I don't believe they're dead, that's why I said presumed dead. But if they're not dead then the only thing new in this book is another Targaryan.

[Koopa]

Besides Dany mucking up, and Jon presumed death, this book was all about Aegon.

[C Of K]

Originally Posted by juleska

Lest you forget, this book was not intended to advance the story beyond AFFC, only to fill in the gaps not covered by Crows since those books occur concurrently.

You're not wrong. But Neither is BaDHaBit. I find it to be somewhat of a misconception that one story, running concurrently with another, cannot drastically advance a series, especially when the two books are generally dealing with totally different characters in different parts of the world. Their paths literally do not cross.

Just because ASOS ended at one point, does not mean the characters of Dance have to flounder for 1000 pages. A lot DID happen in Dance. I can't deny that. Unfortunately, there was also a lot of POV characters getting nowhere. One such character getting nowhere can be too many. After waiting 11 years for a Tyrion chapter, I'm afraid I wasn't satisfied.

I liked Stannis, but I wanted more, and I hated the way it ended for him. There weren't really any concrete endings to that book for any POV characters. Whatever people were expecting from the book, as often as not, that wasn't the story GRRM was interested in telling. He added a lot of new characters, and yet, at the same time he often talks about having too many characters, and the need to kill more of them off.

I liked Penny. But did we need her in order to make Tyrion interesting? I doubt it. Did we need her in order to keep Tyrion from getting to Dany? Maybe. I have no idea why GRRM would find it more advantageous to hold off that engagement, but I'll trust that he knows best.

[Ursa major]

Wasn't one - the main? - reason that Penny was there an opportunity to reinforce the idea that actions have consequences, and sometimes not the ones we'd expect. Now I know that AFfC contained quite a few heads of dwarves, but as they were presented in Cersei's** rather irritated POVs, we got no lasting sense of the tragedy involved.

With Penny, it was rammed home, as it has been with Dany since she reached Meereen.


This sort of thing is one of the reasons that ASoIaF is rather more than one cut above run-of-the-mill, two-dimensional fiction (of whatever genre).



** - I don't recall other POVs dealing with the presenting of the heads, but I haven't checked to make sure.

[C Of K]

You're right. With Penny, it was hammed home. But
that point has been made several times through out the series.

Sometimes you have to move on to other points in order to
progress.

[juleska]

Originally Posted by Ursa major

Wasn't one - the main? - reason that Penny was there an opportunity to reinforce the idea that actions have consequences, and sometimes not the ones we'd expect. Now I know that AFfC contained quite a few heads of dwarves, but as they were presented in Cersei's** rather irritated POVs, we got no lasting sense of the tragedy involved.

With Penny, it was rammed home, as it has been with Dany since she reached Meereen.


This sort of thing is one of the reasons that ASoIaF is rather more than one cut above run-of-the-mill, two-dimensional fiction (of whatever genre).



** - I don't recall other POVs dealing with the presenting of the heads, but I haven't checked to make sure.

I agree. Tyrion also changed a lot in his time with her, in general I think for the better.

I can understand being dissatisfied with the level of activity (or lack thereof) for Tyrion after such a long wait. I didn't have that long wait since I just discovered the series this year, but I can relate for sure. I'm also not saying that ADWD was a perfect book. I just didn't hate it as some here clearly did.....not even close.

[Needle]

Having just finished re-read I felt the need to reevaluate. Upon first reading, I enjoyed DWD but had a lot of complaints as well. I think the balance has shifted somewhat now. Fewer complaints, more enjoyment! As some have said I think the long wait colored my expectations and not for the better!

Kinda working from best to least liked.

I'll start with my girl Arya! I really had not expected to see her in DWD so was pleased to see her at all. Very much enjoyed her story line, she is moving right along. Still not sure where exactly she is going, but when she gets there look out world! She is honing skills she has always possessed. She will be able to go anywhere, be anyone, she is also learning to use her warg abilities which before where only present in her dreams.

Some of the smaller storylines may have been the best!
Davos. praise the seven!, alive and well off to find Rickon! Love him! He and Selmy would be the first of my Queensgaurd!

Lord Manderly, who would have thought it! Freys falling out left and right around him, love it!

That Bravoosi banker is more than he seems. I can buy him just showing up once but he strolls around in the storms of winter like he is going to a spring picnic in the park!

My next best, help me you old Gods!, is Theon/Reek! I never really disliked Theon, felt more sorry for him than anything. His situation was forced on him by the generations before, how he dealt with may not have been perfect but who's would be! He certainly didn't deserve Ramsey! Is it possible he (with Asha's help) can take the Iron Islands back from Euron before dying the heroic death I definitely see in his future?

Jon, honestly for the most part I am very proud of Jon! He has made a lot of tough choices that others (Mormont, Ned or anyone else in the NW) could not have made. In hindsight I think it was part of why Ned had to die, if he was sent to the wall, with Mormont's death he would surely have been elected commander, and could not have made some of the clearly needed choices. Jon had to bring in the wildlings, he needs men, alive, fighting for men, not dead fighting against them! He sent his friends away for two reasons, he can trust them out off his sight and he cannot be their friend anymore, he must be their commander. The only real commander mistake I see is the ships to Hardhome (is that the place I mean, can't remember the name?) waste of time and resources and more lives. On a personal level, as someone said, when will these Starks learn that when they start locking up their wolves bad things happen! Cat got it with Bran and the rest of them should have too! Dany found it out as well, she was doing just fine till she chained her dragons!

Not sure how I feel about Stannis. He is doing many of the right things for the wrong reasons, does that make it right? Mel has used him terribly, what becomes of him when she finally figures out she is backing the wrong horse for AA reborn?

Tyrion, what of Tyrion? Still disappointed with this part of the story for him. I with some here that Penny was neccessary to bring home to him the cost to others for some of his actions yet I feel most of those actions he is feeling the pain of where done by others. I see why GRRM held him back from Dany, had he reached her before she flew off on Drogon he would have gotten the same reception as Quentyn, probable worse, as a Lannister she may very well have feed him to the dragons!

Which brings me to Dany, hated this part of the story, GRRM made her into quite the wimp! Can see it may have been needed to show the opposite side from most leaders as in what happens when the person at the top cares a bit too much about the little people. But did it need to take so long, don't think so! Chaining the dragons bah! Marrying someone because he got the harpies to stop killing bah! All that proves is he is The Harpy and you can hang him now with a clear conscience! Just have to hope she has now gotten her stuff together (with Drogon's help) and can get down to it!

Bran, was very pleased that he has found his niche just sad that it may well mean spending his life as a tree! I really hope this is not true, that he is strong enough for that to not be needed, he deserves better, but we know how GRRM can be, bittersweet anyone?

Has Cersei learned her lesson? As much as we can hope she has, I just don't think so! Actually I hope she hasn't so i don't have to feel sorry for her when she gets her's!

Anyway guess i'm done for now, still more to say but since I have already written a book here, will give you all a break for now! Please let me now what you think!

[juleska]

Needle your thoughts on second reading echo many of mine on first reading. I definitely think the long wait made the first reading difficult for those of you who've been following the story for years. I really really really hated Theon in the earlier books, but Reek's storyline was something else. Martin outdid himself there.

I really appreciated being able to hear so much from Ser Barristan. He brought forth so much history and context! One of the things I like best about Martin's books is the way he crafts a narrative based on one character's perception of events, and because this is the normal way for writers to deliver exposition we readers tend to accept it at face value (at least initially). But over time the reader is exposed to other points of view and gets to hear the same events told from a completely different perspective that makes you empathize with the other side. How many of you wince every time you hear one of the characters you like (Blackfish for example) refer to Jaime with contempt as they call him "Kingslayer"? Hell I even started feeling sorry for Cersei during AFFC as I got insight into her rotten marriage with Robert and the appalling way he treated her. Not too sorry now....just a little bit. ;-)

Speaking of Cersei, no I don't think she's learned her lesson at all. That last meal she had with Kevan was thick with tension as she was clearly trying to restrain herself. I could see the wheels turning in her head thanks to all that time AFFC gave us inside her rotten little brain, and I knew she was gritting her teeth through the entire meal just waiting for this "Mummer's Farce" to end. I expect that she will be victorious in her trial by battle early in TWOW and she will immediately resume being the Cersei we all know and loathe. Then Dany will come swooping in with Drogan and KER-POW! Sucker punch! Can't wait....heheheh.

Anyway, my point is that I think this book was a whole lot of that....spending LOTS of time in those character's heads. It was very insightful to me, so much of what I learned from Barristan's conversations with Dany either changed or solidified my understanding of past events, which in turn shaped my understanding of "today's events" in the story. I did feel like it was dragging a little bit, but I have a feeling the next 2 books are going to be so explosive with action we won't be able to catch our breath!

If I'm wrong, well then call me a liar and feed me to the crows.

[Timba]

Needle and juleska,

I pretty much agree with everything you have said. I made a point out of rereading the series before I dove into ADWD (hey I'm old, memory is fading) as it had been so long.

I love where he has gone with Ayra, hated Jon dying (if he did) and really do not find Stannis as admirable as many seem to. His level of rigidity has always bothered me and he either knows what mel has done as far as killing people in particularly unsporting fashion and closed his eyes to it or he is an idiot. Either way I do not see the appeal.

There are so many story lines open right now that I am really glad I have other things to read while I wait.

[C Of K]

Oh, Stannis isn't all that admirable. But he's a great character. Probably my favorite now that Robert is dead. He complains endlessly. His wife has a mustache, his daughter grayscale, he believes he's been slighted by every man who ever lived. He has all the personality of a lobster. And he has a glowing sword and a beautiful priestess by his side, telling him that it is the duty of the realm to crown him king of Westeros. So he holds the weapon high as he gives completely uninspiring speeches about the responsibilities of his subjects.

Originally Posted by Needle

Tyrion, what of Tyrion? Still disappointed with this part of the story for him. I with some here that Penny was neccessary to bring home to him the cost to others for some of his actions yet I feel most of those actions he is feeling the pain of where done by others. I see why GRRM held him back from Dany, had he reached her before she flew off on Drogon he would have gotten the same reception as Quentyn, probable worse, as a Lannister she may very well have feed him to the dragons!

This is the best explanation I've heard for why Tyrion and Dany could not meet in Dance. They weren't ready for each other. Good point.

[Dornish First Sword]

I agree Stannis is a fantastic "character" and the proof of that to me is that i totally despise him for all the reasons you stated, they are all true. He is exactly how he is supposed to be though which makes him great. I still hope he meets a very ignoble end though

[Koopa]

Lord Manderly, who would have thought it! Freys falling out left and right around him, love it!

easily one of the best parts of the book.
should we start a manderley appreciation thread?