A Dance with Dragons - Discussion - WARNING: SPOILERS!

[juleska]

Originally Posted by hadd

Well without Barristan's POV we wouldn't have basically any idea what happened to Quentyn('s body), to Arch and Dink, what the Brazen Beasts were going to do etc.
Also I imagine that there's going to be battle at Meereen's walls and Dany might get there leading a new Khalasar?
That's how it feels like at least right now.

Not only that, we learned a LOT of history from Barristan about Aerys, Tywin, Rhaegar, etc.

[juleska]

Originally Posted by Culhwch

Oh, I don't know, Quentyn had a merry little dance with the dragons. The only problem was, they most definitely took the lead.

Indeed, but it did seem a little of a toss off there at the end, didn't it? Like he got all the way through to the last 2 chapters when he suddenly said "Oh ****, I forgot to use the title!"

"...but not everyone was meant to dance with dragons."

There. Whew. Close one!

[juleska]

Originally Posted by viZion

I'm pretty sure you're just having fun with these but just in case...

I think to be legitimate Rhaegar and Lyanna would have had to have been married. Since they weren't Jon can't be legitimate. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that.

I'm also pretty sure that Aerys and Joanna producing kids has been debunked because the timelines don't match up.

But, hey, what do I know? Welcome!

Agreed. If Jon is truly the son of Rhaegar & Lyanna (I still think that theory has legs) then he is still a bastard, just a bastard of higher birth.

I dunno about Aerys & Joanna. I took Barristan's remarks the mean that there was a history between Aerys & Joanna. Aerys was certainly known for raping and taking his liberty with the wives of his leal servants, so it isn't a stretch to imagine that such a coupling happened more than once.

[juleska]

Originally Posted by Daisy-Boo

I finished ADWD about a week ago and still haven't quite organised all my thoughts on it. But for now...

My overwhelming feelings upon finishing the book were tiredness, somewhat depressed and more than a little queasy at all the creative ways in which so many people died. So. Much. Death.

I read Jon's stabbing scene and went all Kirk at GRRM...MAAAAAAAARTIIIIIIIN!!!!!!
I don't believe Jon is dead. I can't believe Jon is dead. I think Jon will either survive the stabbing (through the intervention of those still loyal to him - Satin maybe?) or will be resurrected by Melisandre. Jon is no Robb. There's more in store for him.

I think Benjen is Coldhands.

The Meereen chapters were a tough slog. I don't like the Meereenese and I hate their fighting pits. The slaughter of people and animals, described in nauseating detail by GRRM, was nearly too much for me. Dany learnt much about how not to govern but other than that I didn't find any of her chapters compelling. And I was angry that the dragons were chained up, even though I understood why Dany did it.

Am tired so can't think of much else now, except for this...GRRM had better not kill Hodor!

I think we're very much of the same mind about a lot of this. My only real problem with the Mereen storyline (other than the fact that there was too much of it) is the grisly detail of the lack of respect for life. I sorta skimmed the chapter about the fighting pit, but felt very much like Dany in those pages, sort of distracted and unhappy with what was happening but wanting to just get through it. Then Drogan showed up.

[TK-421]

Originally Posted by C Of K

Welsome to the forum, Juleska. Good to see all the newer ones joining the discussion.



If GRRM can bring himself to keep Jon dead, I will be very proud of him. It would be a great turn of events if Stannis actually were Azzor Ahai. Perhaps he has enough Targ in him to ride a dragon?

Here's a thought. If Jon is Rhaegar's son, perhaps Melisandre can burn him to raise that dragon for Stannis. Talk about irony.

To be fair to GRRM, up until a couple of months ago when the GOT episdoe Baelor aired, there were some, including on this forum, that doubted that Ned was truly dead.

I do not think he will give us an undead Jon. GRRM has been clear that there will be no POV from undead characters, hence Stoneheart.

Also, I no longer believe that Jon has any Targ blodd in him.

But, you are right that they have to burn his body or he becomes a wight. Alternatively, they will put his body in the ice cells with the other two bodies. There had to be a point to that tangent on the dead bodies in the ice cell, which was never resolved.

I agree, C of K, that if Jon remains truly dead, I will admire GRRM even more but would not complain if he is saved or reborn.

[The Imp]

Originally Posted by TK-421

To be fair to GRRM, up until a couple of months ago when the GOT episdoe Baelor aired, there were some, including on this forum, that doubted that Ned was truly dead.

I do not think he will give us an undead Jon. GRRM has been clear that there will be no POV from undead characters, hence Stoneheart.

Also, I no longer believe that Jon has any Targ blodd in him.

But, you are right that they have to burn his body or he becomes a wight. Alternatively, they will put his body in the ice cells with the other two bodies. There had to be a point to that tangent on the dead bodies in the ice cell, which was never resolved.

I agree, C of K, that if Jon remains truly dead, I will admire GRRM even more but would not complain if he is saved or reborn.

One of the great disappointments of ADWD for me was the shattering of my "Ned is alive" theory.

I don't agree with you guys when you say that you would admire GRRm if he kept Jon dead. GRRm has proven all that he needed to when he killed off Ned, Cat and Robb, and to a lesser extent Drgo, JOffrey and Viserys. I'll actually take to oppsite point of view and say that i would lose respect for him as a writer if he actually killed Jon off at this point in the series, but my belief is that there isn't the slightest chance that we've seen the end of Jon as a character. I think the really intersting quesion is not if Jon is really dead, but rather, how will his near death be resolved. If Jon is dead and gone it takes a tremendous ammount of meaning away from everything that GRRM has written about him so far. He retroactively becomes filler IMO. There's also the matter of The Letter, which is completely meaningless if Jon can't act on it. I don't beleive any of that is true.

[C Of K]

Personally, I liked my theory, unlikely as it is. It's not likely that Jon will be
burned in order to raise a dragon for Stannis. It's not likely that Stannis is
actually Azor Ahai.

If my theory were true, I don't think Jon's death would retroactively render
him a useless character. I think it would have the same effect on the story
that Ned's death had. We all thought Ned was the glue that held ASoIaF together.
It can't possibly go on without him. A living Ned was more important than a dead one.

Or so most of us thought.

If Jon were used to raise a dragon at the wall for Azor Ahai, he would be very important
to the story. Again, it's not likely to happen this way, but I can wish.

[Seferbo]

Originally Posted by The Imp

I don't agree with you guys when you say that you would admire GRRm if he kept Jon dead. GRRm has proven all that he needed to when he killed off Ned, Cat and Robb, and to a lesser extent Drgo, JOffrey and Viserys. I'll actually take to oppsite point of view and say that i would lose respect for him as a writer if he actually killed Jon off at this point in the series, but my belief is that there isn't the slightest chance that we've seen the end of Jon as a character. I think the really intersting quesion is not if Jon is really dead, but rather, how will his near death be resolved. If Jon is dead and gone it takes a tremendous ammount of meaning away from everything that GRRM has written about him so far. He retroactively becomes filler IMO. There's also the matter of The Letter, which is completely meaningless if Jon can't act on it. I don't beleive any of that is true.

I'm with you 100%. He is an integral part of the story right now. Perhaps he will not make it through the entire series, but his absolute demise at this point would serve nothing more than pleasing a few fan boys convinced the story needs more shock and brutality.

[C Of K]

Shock and brutality wasn't what I was hoping for.
But the truth remains, whether Jon dies or not,
shock and brutality is guaranteed in all of the ASoIaF books,
so I don't think that's the reason anyone wants Jon to stay dead.

EDIT: Besides, Jon was attacked in ADWD. How would it be shocking or brutal if he just did not recover in TWOW?

[viZion]

Originally Posted by The Imp

I think the really intersting quesion is not if Jon is really dead, but rather, how will his near death be resolved.

I'd like to point out (again) that it's not really that tough for Jon to survive this attack. I know you like to talk about the precedence of using resurrection. I'd like to talk about the precedence of characters suffering apparently fatal injuries only to survive them without having to resort to resurrection. How many times has a Tyrion chapter ended with him taking some grievous wound and surviving? How many times have we seen a chapter end with a character's world going black?

I know I've said I'd prefer if Jon stayed dead but I honestly don't think it's over for him. He simply survives his wounds probably due to the intervention of someone there. I just really hate the idea of resurrection I guess.

I actually like C of K's hope that Jon's death can be useful in some other way.

But here's another thing: The only other Wall POV we have is Mel's and all she does is sit in her room and stare at flames. I'm going to forget all the theories that deal with the actual story and just say that Jon lives because we need his POV. And since GRRM has stated no undead POVs then that means he survives his stab wounds. That's MY theory .

[Daisy-Boo]

ViZion

I think you're onto something w.r.t to John's POV of the Wall. This makes me more optimistic that John will survive.

[Glaysher]

Originally Posted by viZion

But here's another thing: The only other Wall POV we have is Mel's and all she does is sit in her room and stare at flames. I'm going to forget all the theories that deal with the actual story and just say that Jon lives because we need his POV. And since GRRM has stated no undead POVs then that means he survives his stab wounds. That's MY theory .

And if Mel is the one to save Jon, her POV will be needed while he is out of action.

[hadd]

A bit off topic but do we have a topic for all the songs/poems/tales existing in the ASOIAF universe?

[vanslyke]

He has said there will be new POV's

[Blekinge]

Quick question- was there a topic about possibility that Dany is in fact Rhaegar's daughter and not sister? Thought I read it somewhere...