A Dance with Dragons - Discussion - WARNING: SPOILERS!

[Culhwch]

Cersei is only heir to Casterly Rock because Jaime can't be and Tyrion is a kinslaying exile. Totally different situation to Sansa. It doesn't mater if Rickon is ready to be a lord, he would be lord. No ifs or buts (well, so long as Bran remains lost). Look at young Lord Robert, who certainly wasn't ready to be lord. Sansa may act as regent (or whatever the equivalent is for a lord as opposed to a king) until Rickon comes of age, but I doubt even that would come to pass. If Davos finds Rickon and Stannis is still alive and somehow manages to take control of the North, I imagine he would install one of his own lords as regent.

Originally Posted by Blekinge

Shae was really a missing Sand Snake.

How do you figure this?

[Blekinge]

Shae=Sand Snake

Just a guesswork really. One of them is missing, said to have her own agenda in the North. Shae fits the bill somehow, what if she wanted to get close to Tywin to kill him? Pose as camp follower, get close to the Lannisters.. Just Tyrion was a tad faster.

[Culhwch]

I'm sure some folks will be along soon to explain the prevailing theory on where the missing Sand Snake is. It's certainly not Shae. Been plenty of discussion about that topic on these boards...

[hadd]

Originally Posted by Culhwch

I'm sure some folks will be along soon to explain the prevailing theory on where the missing Sand Snake is. It's certainly not Shae. Been plenty of discussion about that topic on these boards...

Wasn't the Sphinx a missing sandsnake or I'm remembering something totally wrong?

[viZion]

Like Hadd said, I thought Sarella/Alleras was the missing Sand Snake. Are you talking about something else here, Blekinge? I can't remember there being a mention of a Sand Snake off in the North.

[Daisy-Boo]

I finished ADWD about a week ago and still haven't quite organised all my thoughts on it. But for now...

My overwhelming feelings upon finishing the book were tiredness, somewhat depressed and more than a little queasy at all the creative ways in which so many people died. So. Much. Death.

I read Jon's stabbing scene and went all Kirk at GRRM...MAAAAAAAARTIIIIIIIN!!!!!!
I don't believe Jon is dead. I can't believe Jon is dead. I think Jon will either survive the stabbing (through the intervention of those still loyal to him - Satin maybe?) or will be resurrected by Melisandre. Jon is no Robb. There's more in store for him.

I think Benjen is Coldhands.

The Meereen chapters were a tough slog. I don't like the Meereenese and I hate their fighting pits. The slaughter of people and animals, described in nauseating detail by GRRM, was nearly too much for me. Dany learnt much about how not to govern but other than that I didn't find any of her chapters compelling. And I was angry that the dragons were chained up, even though I understood why Dany did it.

Am tired so can't think of much else now, except for this...GRRM had better not kill Hodor!

[Blekinge]

Originally Posted by viZion

Like Hadd said, I thought Sarella/Alleras was the missing Sand Snake. Are you talking about something else here, Blekinge? I can't remember there being a mention of a Sand Snake off in the North.

Well, I just thought that we might have met the missing Sand Snake under other name in earlier books. So Shae could be the one, taking some random name not to be revealed.

[vanslyke]

I seriously hope another character is not introduced...there are enough to keep track of already lol

[TK-421]

Originally Posted by Daisy-Boo

I I don't believe Jon is dead. I can't believe Jon is dead. I think Jon will either survive the stabbing (through the intervention of those still loyal to him - Satin maybe?) or will be resurrected by Melisandre. Jon is no Robb. There's more in store for him.

I think Benjen is Coldhands.

The Meereen chapters were a tough slog. I don't like the Meereenese and I hate their fighting pits. The slaughter of people and animals, described in nauseating detail by GRRM, was nearly too much for me. Dany learnt much about how not to govern but other than that I didn't find any of her chapters compelling. And I was angry that the dragons were chained up, even though I understood why Dany did it.

Am tired so can't think of much else now, except for this...GRRM had better not kill Hodor!

Jon is dead, me thinks.

Benjen is NOT Coldhands. We would know this by now and Bran would see his uncle in him. He doesn't.

Mereen = ancient Rome

Hodor is toast. Or Bran will become him.

[juleska]

FINALLY got to finish the book and trying to get through all this thread but I can't stop myself anymore, I have to start chiming in. So apologies in advance cuz I'm about to flood the board with new posts.

Originally Posted by Liopleurodon

Random thought/question:

Given the relevation to Bran about many of the ravens in that cave up north, do any of yall think there is something more to Mormonts Raven than that meets the eye?

I find it interesting that the raven follows only the Lord Commander (First Mormont then Jon). Also, consider the passage just before Jon embarked on the course of events that would lead to the wildings coming through the wall:

"He rose and dressed in darkness, as Mormont's raven muttered across the room. "Corn," the bird said, and, "King," and, "Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow." That was queer. The bird has never said his full name before, as best Jon could recall."

It's as if the bird knows something we do not. As if, a peice of some former person lingers within the raven and the bird has a fragment of an actual mind.

It has to be Bran, doesn't it? Bran spoke to Theon from the weirwood tree in the godswood at Winterfell. Why wouldn't he be reaching out to his brother through the raven? I definitely think the LC's raven is not your normal bird.

[C Of K]

Welsome to the forum, Juleska. Good to see all the newer ones joining the discussion.

Originally Posted by TK-421

Jon is dead, me thinks.

If GRRM can bring himself to keep Jon dead, I will be very proud of him. It would be a great turn of events if Stannis actually were Azzor Ahai. Perhaps he has enough Targ in him to ride a dragon?

Here's a thought. If Jon is Rhaegar's son, perhaps Melisandre can burn him to raise that dragon for Stannis. Talk about irony.

[juleska]

Originally Posted by Needle

Varys did agree to having Dany killed, but if I remember right he also agreed with Littlefinger to offer a lordship instead of hiring Faceless or Sorrowful man, effectively saving her life. I agree he's got to be up to something but don't know how he would ever expect to gain more power, as he himself has said nobody trusts a spider.

I love, love your thoughts on the prophecy! As we know prophecy may always prove true, but not usually in a straight forward way. Your interpretation fits perfectly! Combined with it being made a point of that Dany was bleeding (which she seemed shocked and confused by) I believe you may indeed be right!!

I like this theory! If Dany can get preggers again, then would she bring forth TPWWP?

Although the theories about Jon and his smoking wounds, Mel and her fires only showing her Snow......those are pretty compelling clues.

PLEASE STOP KILLING STARKS, Mr. Martin!!

P.S. Ramsay is absolutely full of $&%#!! He achieves his goals by threats, ruthless violence and instilling a deep sense of fear. That letter he wrote was all about that. But recall those Ironborn that showed up in Stannis' camp with the Bravosi banker and Theon / "Arya" in tow. Ramsay doesn't know any of that, all he knows is he's lost 2 of his prize possessions (Reek and "Arya") and that apparently Mance showed up, so he found an angle to play. I think the only true thing in that letter was that Mance is in his possession and yes, quite likely in a cage.

[juleska]

Originally Posted by purple_kathryn

Enjoyed it overall but was abit frustrated as the story didn't move forward as much as I would've liked.

Especially as I really wanted Ramsay to be dead by the end of the book!

Not to pick on purple_kathryn, but this was another of many complaints I've read that the story did not progress enough. Recall that this book runs concurrently with AFFC, and the same complaints were made there. It would have been out of balance if this book progressed more than the last one. A lot of people talked about re-reading AFFC before ADWD (I just started the series in April so I simply read straight through). I think a better technique would've been to read ASOS before ADWD, since Dragons picks up where Swords left off. When I read the series through a second time, I'm going to try re-reading Dragons before re-reading Crows and see how it affects my perction of events.

Anyway I think that's the reason for the less than enormous progression in the storyline. I personally thought the progression was adequate for the scope of the story and the position on the overall story-arc. I pictured this book as a steadily gathering tsunami, waiting to combine with the loose ends from Crows to crash down in Winter.

[juleska]

Originally Posted by Culhwch

But why would he? Jon didn't think that they would be more trouble than they are worth, and Jon makes the point that he and Robb learnt together from their father and their master-at-arms - you can assume what one knows, the other knows. There has been no indication in the text to this point that they are trouble-makers, land-grabbers, or anything else. In fact, they have been distinctly made out to be honourable, loyal, and fierce fighters. Furthermore, Theo Wull was one of Ned's companions at the Tower of Joy - which I would assume would make him a close companion and confidant, and make the Wulls, at least, close to House Stark, or at the very least signify that Ned called the clans for Robert's Rebellion.

Big difference between the two situations....

Robb marched forth with all the power of the Northern lords and their banners behind him. He was flanked with seasoned knights, trained squires and a host of capable men. Jon and Stannis have a very different situation going on. Stannis doesn't command near the loyalty that Robb did. Many of the Northern lords are fighting against Stannis (or at least, dividing their loyalties until they can see which will be the winning side). Jon has no men to spare and can barely handle the Wall with his meager force. The wildlings may be many in number but they are untrained and undisciplined. And the men of the Nights Watch were clashing with the Wildlings (and vice versa).

Robb had no need of additional trained men, he felt he had enough (and for a time he did). Jon, however, and by virtue of Jon, Stannis, they need every sword they can get.

[juleska]

Originally Posted by hadd

I agree. I would have loved more info about some of the loose ends in AFFC (Marwyn, Brienne etc).

Overall I enjoyed the read. The slower pace was quite enjoyable for a while actually. I admit some chapters might have been a tad bit boring and repetitive (everything that has something to do with Martells) but as someone said the Griff storyline was brilliant. The part when Connington takes his glove off to look at his hand was a brilliant ending for a chapter (would be cool if they'd finish a TV series episode with that moment too, it felt exactly like a suitable one).
I expected a bit more of the Meereenese knot but I suppose it's one of cases that what seems simple to the reader is hard for the writer and vice versa.
Also I never expected that I'd start to dislike Daenerys but I think that's just great writing. Would be boring if all she done would make the readers Aww or You go girl!

Oh well, back to lurking and rereading the 5 books from time to time now I guess.

I guess I'm alone on this one but my feelings on Dany are exactly the opposite. In the early books I really really disliked her, and found her character intensely irritating. All that changed when she hatched the dragons, though. Once she had the dragons it was like she began to discover who she really is supposed to be, and that's when she became interesting to me.

Although I agree the time in Mereen seemed to drag, I think it served a purpose on several fronts. Dany needed a chance to catch her breath. I think one of the reasons Robert was such an abysmal failure as a king (apart from the fact that he was a great warrior but no true leader) is that he assumed the throne having had no real "practice" at ruling....only the thrill of battle. Robert found the responsibilities of the crown tedious and left them to others, people who either did not rule because they felt it was not their place, or undermined his rule because he allowed them the freedom to do so. Robert was not mature enough to understand that wearing a crown is not about glory, but it is a calling and a responsibility. Cersei and even Margary's failure as queens reflect much of the same reasoning. Dany....though considerably younger than Robert when he took the throne, certainly younger than Cersei as Queen Regent and even younger than Margary in her half-queendom.....fully gets that. Only Dany seems to understand that a monarch serves her people, not the other way around.

Despite her youth, Dany is far more mature than any of those mentioned above, and more mature than most anyone else aspiring to a crown in the series. She makes Sansa look even more like an addle-brained prat, and they're roughly the same age. You may be bored with Mereen and anxious for Dany to move on, but consider her reasons for staying.

1) She was tired of the march and wanted to stay put for awhile, I think she needed that emotionally and physically. To have maintained the hard press all the way into Westeros, when the real battle would've waged and there would be no time to rest, it would only ensure that as she assumed the Iron Throne she would be weary and just as overwhelmed with the responsibilities of ruling as Robert had been (though I do think she would've handled it better). For her general well-being, this stop was necessary.

2) All her reasons for staying in Mereen have to do with taking responsibility for her choices. Unlike other would-be monarchs in the story she isn't just chasing glory. She recognizes that she set all these people free from slavery and she cannot simply abandon them until they've found their own way forward (much like Jon cannot abandon his sense of responsibility toward the wildlings? hmmm) What kind of ruler would she be if she simply abandoned Mereen in the chaos she created when she took the city? Robert with Teats, most likely. No, Dany is more responsible than that.

Her sense of responsibility is also the reason she chained up her dragons. Though I hated it just as you all did, I do understand why she did it. She loves her winged children, but she bears the guilt of the babies slain by her dragons, and the guilt is crushing her soul. She knows no other way to control them so she resorts to locking them up. But I think she knew all along that it would never work, and that eventually the dragons would have to come out.

I don't think any of the decisions she made in ADWD (save, perhaps, her affair with Darrio) were borne of impetuous youth. I think her actions were driven by her attempts to make the right decision when presented with two impossible choices.

"If you wish to be the queen of rabbits, you must wear your floppy ears." She can't be all things to all people, but she is trying to be the right thing to the people before her now. And that journey from the new Dragonstone through the Dothraki Sea brought it all together for her. These lessons were necessary, and the time in Mereen will make her better suited for her eventual rule in Westeros.