A Dance with Dragons - Discussion - WARNING: SPOILERS!

[viZion]

Originally Posted by Quick Ben

My short review: It was the longest book I've read in which nothing (meaningful) actually happens.

Bit harsh but you get the gist. Everyone is where they were at the beginning of the book.

For me, Robert Jordan's Crossroads of Twilight is the longest book I've read in which nothing happens. I know it's shorter than ADWD but it devotes three full chapters (in a row!) to one character taking a bath. It's still the book in which nothing happens by which all other books in which nothing happens are measured by.

[Ursa major]

Originally Posted by viZion

...but it devotes three full chapters (in a row!) to one character taking a bath. It's still the book in which nothing happens by which all other books in which nothing happens are measured by.

I'm tempted to ask why his editor or publisher didn't pull the plug on these chapters.

[viZion]

Originally Posted by Ursa major

I'm tempted to ask why his editor or publisher didn't pull the plug on these chapters.

My guess is that when you've got a huge cash cow your editors and publishers are a lot more reluctant to mess with any of your work. Both Jordan's and Martin's novels suffer from bloat and could have used some serious editing. ADWD had two chapters (one Tyrion and one Dany) that could have been removed entirely and not a single bit of the story would have changed. But who is going to tell him to leave those chapters out? Who is going to tell him to cut down on the food and clothing descriptions? He's the master author so the answer is no one will tell him to delete stuff. At best, I'm thinking his (and Jordan's) editors fix typos and clean up the grammar a bit.

[soulsinging]

Originally Posted by Gazz

It was like being at a barbecue with all your best friends. The sun was shining, all of your pals were there, and the atmosphere was all spot on. The host is laughing and joking, and turning over some burgers on a grill, and they look DELICIOUS, and it's fantastic, and you get a beer or two to start, and you're joking, and then the host brings you over some salad, and some sausages. He pretends he's going to take them away, but then gives you them, with a little chuckle, and you laugh a little at the hosts tendency to always pull the same trick (althought you're secretly a little bit tired, it isn't as fun or funny when he does it every single time he pulls a plate over) And sure, they're tasty, but you secretly really just want a burger, but you can wait a little while. They're still simmering, and he makes a little joke and goes back to them and turns them over and you carry on laughing and joking with your friends.

And then the sun goes down, and it's still nice but you wonder when the burgers are going to be brought over. And the host brings you over some more sausages and salad, and yeah, you think they're nice, but all you want now is a f******g burger, and you can smell them, you can hear them SIZZLING, surely they must be ready by now. You finish your sausages and salad, and laugh and joke, and the stars are out, and then you get some more sausages and salad, but you don't want any sausages or salad. In fact, though they're nice, and if they were all you expected, they'd be fine, but the burgers are RIGHT THERE. And then, just as you think you won't get a burger, you finally, finally get one brought over by the host. But all he gives you is a bite, and then you have to go home.

Left me feeling a bit seen off. One burger would have been enough, but all we got was salad and sausages (and maybe a bite at the end).

This review is pretty funny, but is sausage and salad some sort of common appetizer? I've never heard of it served like that...

[hadd]

Originally Posted by soulsinging

This review is pretty funny, but is sausage and salad some sort of common appetizer? I've never heard of it served like that...

I'm guessing sausages are the things that get cooked the fastest at grill parties, whilst burger material takes a bit more time? And well salads are made before the grilling starts usually. So might be that :P

[Ursa major]

Given that, in the UK at least, most sausages tend to be made of "pork" and burgers of "beef", I can't help thinking that the sausages ought to be cooked for longer than the burgers.









(Please note that my expertise with respect to barbecues consists solely of avoiding meat "cooked" on them.)

[C Of K]

I try not to read too deeply into such analogies, but I think the main question this raises would be, why is George hanging onto somewhere around 100 or more secrets when he has only 2 (or possibly 3) books left in the series, and only offered up a dozen or so little secrets in Dance?

The obvious answer would be because George feels it would be better to hold onto those secrets a little longer, and because his plans for the series require that he do so.

Obvious answers aren't always true answers. The ideal series of books would reveal secrets more evenly than George has. Dance let us know that Aegon is probably alive, Davos is alive, that Arya didn't remain blind, that Brienne is not dead, though she may be undead, that BloodRaven is the 3 eyed crow, Theon is Reek, Varys is still in King's Landing, and a few other things.

And all that seems like a lot, but in the mid part of the series, it would be good to have some sort of inkling as to the real enemy's motivations, and maybe a few other things as well. I can't seem to come up with any reason why George is withholding that information, teasing us with the aroma of burgers that probably should have been finished before some of those sausages were.

At this point, I can only hope that the last 2 books reveal secrets at such a pace that my stomach will be fully satisfied by the end of the meal.

[Blekinge]

I really sympathize with your frustration, I cannot imagine what it could be like, to be waiting for a book for 6 years and getting very few satysfying answers.

I started with TSOIAF in March this year and finished ADWD last month so I never really had to wait for a book long- at the time ADWD was published I still had four chapters left of AFFC...

Not to say I wasnt hungry for some real answers but I didnt rush through the book just waiting for something to happen. I was impatient of course to see the events unfold a bit faster but I think I could enjoy the experience a bit more than some of you guys... and if WOW were published next month (imagine!!!) I would think that there was no book more perfect than ADWD. Alas...

1. Meereen. I appreciate the effort GRRM put into that, I really do. Nobody can accuse him of favourising the West and just skimming through Essos chapters. But it was a pain to read nonetheless. Dany is just out of place there like a stranger in Moscow. But I guess GRRM plans for Dany to arrive in Westeros at the end of the whole series (Cercei's prophesy that a younger queen will take everything from her- it must be Dany, not Margery) so there has to be something for Dany to do in the meantime. But khalasar again? and dirty Dany in the middle of the desert with a dragon again? Come on, there is a whole continent there, she can find some more interesting pastimes.
2. Jon as Lord Commander. I mean why? He never wanted to be one and immediately he started to change everything on the Wall, relocating all his friends and being left with a whole bunch of unreliable wildlings and even more unreliable Brothers. Recipe for a disaster if somebody asks me. I never enjoyed his character anyway, so I wouldnt mind him dying that much. But I bet he will survive, join Dany and the dragons and together they will think about how to feed thousends of freed slaves and relocated wildlings. Being noble can really be boring for the readers....
3. Quentyn was fun. Not alive, but in his death. The best dying in the series (ok Red Wedding was well written but so sad).
4. Manderly's plot rocked. I loved that chubby guy form the first feast in Winterfell. And cool to send Davos to Skagos! Rickon must be the heir of Winterfell now that Bran is busy being the talking tree.
5. I hope Jamie will kill Cercei in the end. He is her little brother after all, right? Will be awesome!

More thoughts will come, getting hungry for now.

[Needle]

4. Manderly's plot rocked. I loved that chubby guy form the first feast in Winterfell. And cool to send Davos to Skagos! Rickon must be the heir of Winterfell now that Bran is busy being the talking tree.

Welcome Blekinge!

Total agreement about Manderly, he is great! Freys just disappear right and left when he is around!

Hate to tell you though that Sansa is heir to Winterfell. now I am no Sansa fan (usually refer to her as the potted plant in the room!) but I feel she will play a large part in bringing things together. My prediction: she will marry Harry the Heir. Someone (too many guesses on who) will take out Littlefinger and little Lord Robert, maybe not Harry, hopefully he is a decent guy and Sansa gets a little happiness. All this makes her the Lady of Winterfell and the Vale! The Vale has the only large, untouched army in the realm, just what is going to be needed soon!

[Ursa major]

In the North, as opposed to Dorne, male heirs have a greater claim than do their older sisters. At the moment, Bran is heir (though it looks reasonably likely that he won't return to make his claim) and Rickon is next in line. It's their existence (Rickon's in particular) that promises to throw a spanner into Littlefinger's plans.

(Something has to.)

[Blekinge]

Originally Posted by Ursa major

In the North, as opposed to Dorne, male heirs have a greater claim than do their older sisters. At the moment, Bran is heir (though it looks reasonably likely that he won't return to make his claim) and Rickon is next in line. It's their existence (Rickon's in particular) that promises to throw a spanner into Littlefinger's plans.

(Something has to.)

That is exactly what I think! Rickon must have a role to play in the game!

[Blekinge]

And here are my speculations:

Jon is legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, thus making him the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne.

Dany, Aegon and Jon will rule the seven kingdoms together and Tyrion will be their Hand.

Cercei and Jamie are also Targaryens, but bastards, children of Mad King and Johanna.

Jamie will kill Cercei and go over to the Targeryans or die somehow

Shae was really a missing Sand Snake.

Rickon will become the heir of Winterfell and Bran will stay behind the Wall and taking care of the Others.

Nights Watch will be disbanded.

Arya will be the High Commander of the Kingsguard (and Secret Assassin)

Sansa will kill Littlefinger and rule the Eyrie.

Varys will be Varys.

Thank you for reading

[viZion]

Originally Posted by Blekinge

Jon is legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, thus making him the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne.

Cercei and Jamie are also Targaryens, but bastards, children of Mad King and Johanna.

I'm pretty sure you're just having fun with these but just in case...

I think to be legitimate Rhaegar and Lyanna would have had to have been married. Since they weren't Jon can't be legitimate. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that.

I'm also pretty sure that Aerys and Joanna producing kids has been debunked because the timelines don't match up.

But, hey, what do I know? Welcome!

[Blekinge]

Originally Posted by viZion

I'm pretty sure you're just having fun with these but just in case...

I think to be legitimate Rhaegar and Lyanna would have had to have been married. Since they weren't Jon can't be legitimate. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that.

I'm also pretty sure that Aerys and Joanna producing kids has been debunked because the timelines don't match up.

But, hey, what do I know? Welcome!

Thank you! I feel very welcomed ^^

Well, by saying that he is legitimate I meant of course that they married, secretly of course! By some wandering septon for example :P

And what timeline? What was Aerys doing when Joanna concieved?

[Needle]

Originally Posted by Ursa major

In the North, as opposed to Dorne, male heirs have a greater claim than do their older sisters. At the moment, Bran is heir (though it looks reasonably likely that he won't return to make his claim) and Rickon is next in line. It's their existence (Rickon's in particular) that promises to throw a spanner into Littlefinger's plans.

(Something has to.)

This is true about heirs, yet i still think Sansa will come first. Bran has other obligations and Rickon is 3, not quite ready to be Lord. There is some precedence too, Cersei was/is heir to Casterly Rock.

Littlefinger (I hope anyway) will live just long enough to see things going just like he planned for Sansa, but not long enough to benefit!

Jon is legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, thus making him the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne.
Even if Jon was legitimate, I could be wrong here but, I think Aegon is the elder.