A Dance with Dragons - Discussion - WARNING: SPOILERS!

[Lady of Winterfell]

What exactly was the 'Meerenese Knot'? Was it something specific in the storyline, or just that GRRM couldn't decide what to do with Dany, or how to get her back to Westeros?

[hadd]

Originally Posted by Lady of Winterfell

What exactly was the 'Meerenese Knot'? Was it something specific in the storyline, or just that GRRM couldn't decide what to do with Dany, or how to get her back to Westeros?

Well as far as I can understand the Meereenese knot was everything about the storyline that takes part over the sea. In what order everything takes place, who gets there first, how does it all match up... Stuff like that.
Also I think Barristan's POV was one of the things that "solved" the knot, meaning that through Barristan's POV the reader should get some insight why and how the war at Meereen's walls starts?

That's just my view on it. I'm not sure what was the bit exactly that George found difficult about the situation in Meereen though.

[Wiggum]

Originally Posted by hadd

That's just my view on it. I'm not sure what was the bit exactly that George found difficult about the situation in Meereen though.

This is what I'm confused about too.

Quentyn was made into Martell Texas Toast, Dany left, so did Griff, Tyrion rode a boat then a pig, and nary a Greyjoy made it there.

yay?

[C Of K]

Originally Posted by Wiggum

This is what I'm confused about too.

Quentyn was made into Martell Texas Toast, Dany left, so did Griff, Tyrion rode a boat then a pig, and nary a Greyjoy made it there.

yay?

My sentiments exactly. I know I said this in another post, but I think the whole knot was just a result of George trying too hard. It seems to me that the real problem he's having with Meereen is coming up with ways and reasons to keep Dany from making it to Westeros before he's ready to place her there.

Quentyn is the only one who made it to Dany, and the only result of his making it was his death and his freeing of her dragons, and the possible fulfillment of a prophecy that few of us even considered a prophecy to begin with. (Though that last one was welcome, and clever if it is indeed the case.)

[viZion]

My theory on why Quentyn died is that GRRM was trying to recreate the shock of Ned's death. I.e. he spends an entire book on this character only to kill him off. Except that instead of shocking us it kind of just pissed everyone off because now we just see it as a waste of time.

Ned's death was shocking because he's such a central character to the story and, of course, up until he died central characters in fantasy books rarely died before the end of the story. And even if they do die, they certainly don't die so suddenly and pointlessly as he did. That's what made it shocking.

With Quentyn we know he really isn't central to the story. We know there are like 18 other Dany suitors out there. We know that if we'd never met him the story wouldn't change a bit. We just don't have any reason to become emotionally invested in him. He's not even particularly likable. So when he dies it's not shocking and certainly running and trying to play with dragons was never going to end well. Therefore, we just get pissed off that our time was wasted with nothing to show for it. Get us out of Meereen, George!

Sorry, that was so long. I've been wanting to get that off my chest for awhile.

[Wiggum]

Quentyn was useless to the story.

He just was.

Unless he goes down in history as Doran's Lark.

[Mesanna]

Maybe Quentin's death will have repercussions in future books for Dorne, like maybe Arianne or Trystane will have to do something that Quentin should have done and things will go pear-shaped because of it. We just don't know yet.

By the way Wiggum, great summary of ADWD! I lol'd.

[Ursa major]

It will be interesting to see how Doran reacts. Will he see that his caution and long-term planning has come to naught, or will he judge that Quentyn's death shows that behaving rashly leads only to disaster? And will Doran find out about his son's death before** he has to make some or other crucial decision (e.g. supporting Aeron or not)?





** - This is hard to forecast as the order of events, and their respective positions in the timeline, aren't easy to determine. (Having said that, it took Quentyn a long time to get to Meereen, so unless his Archibald Yronwood and Gerris Drinkwater have access to crows (or something similar), the news will not reach Sunspear for quite a while.)

[Tansy]

I think the whole Merenese know was how to put all the pieces into the places GRRM needed them for the next book to progress, maybe it was the timing he had an issue with so had to hold Dani up hence her indicision and bad judgements?

[hadd]

Originally Posted by Wiggum

This is what I'm confused about too.

Quentyn was made into Martell Texas Toast, Dany left, so did Griff, Tyrion rode a boat then a pig, and nary a Greyjoy made it there.

yay?

Haha, yeah, it's funny that the writer's block George had the most troubles with and worked on the most is the one most of the readers don't like. On the other hand it has always seemed to me that Jon chapters were something he just had to "quickly shovel away".
I hope book 6 shifts away from Meereen rather quickly though, so far the Meereenese "knot" might be the weakest part of the storyline...or at least the most boring bit for me.
I love the descriptions and Dany sacking other cities overseas but a whole book focusing on that one city, with rather static action...Meh.

And I'm really disappointed about no news about Littlefinger or Marwyn. I really hoped Marwyn would be one of the characters thrown into the Meereenese knot.

[Lady of Winterfell]

You would think for as much time as GRRM spent talking about the 'Meereneese Knot', we would have a clearer idea of what it was.

[Seferbo]

Originally Posted by viZion

My theory on why Quentyn died is that GRRM was trying to recreate the shock of Ned's death. I.e. he spends an entire book on this character only to kill him off. Except that instead of shocking us it kind of just pissed everyone off because now we just see it as a waste of time.
...

With Quentyn we know he really isn't central to the story. We know there are like 18 other Dany suitors out there. We know that if we'd never met him the story wouldn't change a bit. We just don't have any reason to become emotionally invested in him. He's not even particularly likable. So when he dies it's not shocking and certainly running and trying to play with dragons was never going to end well. Therefore, we just get pissed off that our time was wasted with nothing to show for it. Get us out of Meereen, George!

New to posting but I have been reading threads here for the past couple months. Thank you all for getting me through the boring days at work

As for Quentyn Viz, I agree his character may have served in part as another death to "shock" the reader. He did not play as big a role (for the time being) as Ned had, nor were we as attached...

However I must disagree that him dying was only to serve that purpose. Though he isn't central to the story, Dorne is- or at least will be in Westeros. Especially since they remain literally unscathed in the battle for the throne so far (I believe Martel says the only blood spilled was that of the Vipers). My point being (and as mentioned by others) any event, such as a death, that could affect Dorne should not be taken lightly. In a weakened Westeros they remain the only peoples at full strength, not to mention being militarily unoccupied in any other conflicts. Quentyn's death means something, but it really depends how the news comes about. Shed in the wrong light it could mean serious trouble between a Dorne and Dany alliance. If I did not think the Varys-Illerio combo didn't like her I could see them really using this to their advantage to put Aegon on the throne with Dornes support.

As for liking Quentyn, his story, and even Mereene. Well I agree a little. I've never cared much for the hot n spicey Dorne (save for the Viper), nor am I a fan of Middle Eastern/Indian culture so it is sometimes a tedious read. Regardless though the song is of 'Ice and Fire', not 'Ice and Fire only in Westeros'. I'd rather have had Dany back home from the beginning then spend a book amongst primitive horse worshipers but oh well. This whole Mereene experience has no doubt been a valuable learning experience for her. "Lets bring our troops home!" Oh wait this is a UK forum.... hahah but seriously it reminds me of US affairs in the middle east. Its like, we want to do good, but no one wants us there and we aren't doing the best job, but we kinda like being there for their resources, just instead of oil its soldiers (mmm unsullied).

[Lady of Winterfell]

I think Quentyn's death probably did serve a higher purpose than just shock value, but I'm not sure we needed his POV. We could have learned his comings and goings in Meereen from other POV characters.

If it was for the shock value, well then GRRM failed because (like Viz) I wasn't shocked at all.

And welcome to the Chrons Seferbo!

[Seferbo]

Thank you Lady of Winterfell. Fair enough we could have gotten nearly as much about him from another POV. Though that last line of his chapter was almost worth it.

I liked the death not for the shock, but for something normal/expected finally happening. There are so many twists and unexpected last second saves or changes that is nice to see GRRM getting real with at least one significant character. Not to mention there is no more doubt...dragons are serious business.

Originally Posted by C Of K

Ser Robert Strong...?

*Shudders*

The Mountain's body and who's head??

Ned's?! haha if only it wasn't mounted on a spike then sent to Winterfell, though his bones never made it past the Neck which means Howland Reed has them at Greywater Watch? any significance there?

But seriously who did Qyburn have access to in that dungeon? For some reason I assume the head sent to Dorne was legitimately Gregor's, which means Ser Robert Strong has no head or (more likely) he has someone elses. I wouldn't put that past the maester who was stripped of his chain for "immoral research".

[Ursa major]

Perhaps the solution was to cut the knot....


I seem to recall that GRRM made some comments about the problem concerned timing. And it may well also concern the size of Essos. Unlike Westeros (south of the Wall, that is), we don't really know how big Essos is. We know that its western shore reaches from directly east of Dorne to directly east of the Fingers, but its extent, east to west, is unknown. We have maps of bits of it, but nothing that links these. Even when Dany was moving about, we didn't get a feel for its true size. And in AGoT, ACoK and ASoS, this didn't matter: we were following Dany and took no particular notice of how her position related to anyone else (and didn't really care much about the time she spent heading this way and that).

But the Meereenese knot involved getting various players into Dany's vicinity in some sort of sequence, and from various start points. That required GRRM to know how far east Meereen is, and how fast various characters can move - over land, down rivers and across the sea - and in a time of conflict. That was GRRM's problem, his "knot". We don't need to know the details of the problem or of his solution, not directly. (And perhaps his solution is something perhaps only he will see in full.) We'll only get to see its consequences, like Quentyn arriving late (appropriately enough) and Marwyn's (apparent) non-appearance in ADWD.

We shouldn't be surprised at this: a lot of what we have seen is a result of Varys's and Littlefinger's pulling of various strings. As has been pointed out, we still don't really know what either of them (or Illyrio or any number of other plotters) is up to.



By the way, Werthead provided a comparison between the size of Westeros and Europe: (http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e4...arisonsize.jpg). Based on that map, I reckon Westeros is about 4200km (2600 miles), from the Wall to the southern coast of Dorne.