Quick Fire Questions (A Place to Ask and Answer)

[pyan]

Or if it's more colloquial, it could be "Ma Smith", or "Ma Jones"...

[Abernovo]

If the mother is a character in her own right, even if she remains off-stage the entire time*, then she could be referred to by her own name. DEO is right about the use of Mother as a title in some cultures, just as Grandmother is.

Alternatively, can there be a phone call, visitor, etc., asking for Mrs X? That would give a title and surname to refer to her by. An extra variation.

*(Godot never appears, but is still a character - oops! spoiler?)

[Warren_Paul]

EDIT: Nevermind, misread Aber's post.

As for titles, it would be Duchess, or Lady. But Kateryn wouldn't think of her mother as "The duchess" or "Lady Helena" or "milady"

[Abernovo]

I see your problem now. I may have misunderstood. That second example looks a little like head-hopping to me. I agree that could be problematic.

Is the entire story focussed on Kateryn? (I'm never good with the exact literary terms, but 3rd Person, close?)


EDIT:
Just had a thought: Could the queen calling Kateryn's mother 'Helena'remove the need for there to be a title (Helena/her mother/she answered)?

[Warren_Paul]

Sorry, Aber, edited post.

No, there are 8 PoV characters. At other places I use her mother's actual name.

It's just confusing for scenes where there are multiple mothers involved

I just can't have Kateryn referring to her mother as "Helena" or "The Duchess" or "my lady" "milady" (as the common folk would) because none of those would be something she'd use. Which leaves me with "Her mother" or "Mother"

[Warren_Paul]

Originally Posted by Abernovo

EDIT:
Just had a thought: Could the queen calling Kateryn's mother 'Helena'remove the need for there to be a title (Helena/her mother/she answered)?

In that situation, yes, maybe, as long as it doesn't make the reader think Kateryn is speaking.

Here is a perfect example of my problem:

She was uncomfortably aware of Rose’s eyes boring into her. She resisted the urge to look in her sister’s direction and smirk. Kateryn blinked in surprise when a little face peeked out from behind the queen’s layered skirts and directed big blue eyes up at them.

Her mother leaned down towards the round-faced girl. ‘Are you not just the sweetest little thing?’ The pale haired girl scooted back behind the folds of the queen’s dress, drawing a collection of laughs from those nearby.

‘Mabell, my youngest, she will be four this winter,’ the queen said, and ushered the girl out from behind her. The girl stood there, clutching at the frills of the queen’s dress, looking even more nervous than Kateryn felt.

In that, the "her mother" is of course Kateryn's mother, but there is the possibility the reader might think I'm meaning Mabell's mother, the queen.

EDIT: Just realised how horrible that first paragraph is, rewording it now.

So would it be ok to replace the "her mother" in red with: "Helena" while in Kateryn's PoV?

[crystal haven]

Hi Warren,

I hope I'm understanding correctly.

'Her mother leaned', is Kateryn's mother, and the child is the queen's child. And it is from the POV of Kateryn?

How about separating the paragraph, so that the it becomes:

Mother leaned down towards the round-faced girl. ‘Are you not just the sweetest little thing?’

The pale haired girl scooted back behind the folds of the queen’s dress, drawing a collection of laughs from those nearby. ‘Mabell, my youngest, she will be four this winter,’ the queen said, and ushered the girl out from behind her. The girl stood there, clutching at the frills of the queen’s dress, looking even more nervous than Kateryn felt.

But I write first person mostly, so this might not be right.

[Warren_Paul]

Originally Posted by crystal haven

Hi Warren,

I hope I'm understanding correctly.

'Her mother leaned', is Kateryn's mother, and the child is the queen's child. And it is from the POV of Kateryn?

How about separating the paragraph, so that the it becomes:

But I write first person mostly, so this might not be right.

Thanks Crystal, you're right, so doing that fixes the identity of the "her mother"?

[crystal haven]

Originally Posted by Warren_Paul

Thanks Crystal, you're right, so doing that fixes the identity of the "her mother" to you?

I felt that using 'Mother', instead of 'her mother, would put it firmly into Kateryn's POV, because I wouldn't think of someone else's mother, as just 'Mother'.

So yes, separating the paragraphs and using Mother works for me.

I've just read this post - I hope all those mothers make sense.

[Warren_Paul]

Originally Posted by crystal haven

I felt that using 'Mother', instead of 'her mother, would put it firmly into Kateryn's POV, because I wouldn't think of someone else's mother, as just 'Mother'.

So yes, separating the paragraphs and using Mother works for me.

I've just read this post - I hope all those mothers make sense.

In 1st person using "Mother" would be fine, but it would be strange in 3rd, unless it's dialogue or internal thoughts.

Or can I use Mother?

hmm, thinking now...

[crystal haven]

You see, I'm rubbish at 3rd person.

But I would still try splitting the paragraph, then it will indicate a different view - not meaning view point. I think...

Maybe I should just go away again, back to my 1st person books.

Just had a thought... Is Kateryn's mother wearing anything the reader knows about - that would tell the reader which mother it was, like a necklace moving when she bends down towards the child.

[Abernovo]

Even though it's from Kateryn's POV, it's 3rd Person. I have experience of how difficult it can be when you have a few characters of the same sex or with a similarity in the same scene, yet sometimes it can't be avoided.

Crystal haven's suggestion of breaking the paragraph works, as you've already noted. I once saw a suggestion that a writer have a list of brief descriptors for characters, some of which would only be used around certain other characters.

So you could describe the two women as older/younger (as for that second, they're not a duchess and a queen, but simply mothers of daughters: equals in that respect); they could have different hair colours (Mabell could have the same shade as the queen); taller/shorter; or Kateryn's mother could talk to Mabell as Kateryn remembered from her own childhood.

All of them would show little differences. However, reading what you've put up, here and previously, you probably know all of this. Best of luck.

[springs]

To be honest, I'd go for the KISS, and refer to her as her mother, or Katelyn's mother, or "Mother" in dialogue, and try to mix them up as much as poss. I have a lot of 3 way conversations for some reason, I must like them, and while it's a pest, when I leave the designator's out people lose track of who's who. I agree with Crystal, though, that playing with the paragraphs and run of things can help, too.

[Warren_Paul]

Originally Posted by Abernovo

All of them would show little differences. However, reading what you've put up, here and previously, you probably know all of this. Best of luck.

Thanks Aber. That's the thing, I already know the answer to my question, I just don't like it.

So was hoping for somebody to suggest an alternative so I didn't have to keep to it.


@Crystal Yeah, musing over; can't use "Mother" it's just wrong in 3rd person. And the reality is, while I'm inside Kateryn's head, all I can use is "her mother" or "Kateryn's mother" in narrative, and "Mother" in dialogue/internal thoughts.

EDIT:

Yeah, that's what I'm doing at the moment, Springs. Thanks. Crystal's suggestion for the paragraph change is my best hope.

[crystal haven]

After having another cup of coffee and waking up properly, I realised 'Mother' wouldn't have worked. Silly me.