What comes first? The publisher or the agent?

[anhalo]

Hi,

I read Orson Scott's book on writing fantasy and science fiction a few days ago, and he thought that people should try and get a publishing offer before finding an agent.

What are people's opinions on that here? And are there many people on here that are already published?

Also, I don't notice many fantasy books in the UK for the adult market... Should I be aiming at the teenage market with fantasy?

Best Regards,

Anhalo.

[Teresa Edgerton]

Card's book was written in 1990, and a lot has changed since then. In the late 80's I was able to sell my first book without representation; now, few publishers will even look at a manuscript that is not represented by an agent.

Yes, it is far easier to get an agent if there is already an offer on the table, but with rare exceptions (our own Anne Lyle is one of them) it is best to get the agent first.

As for which market to aim for: As you are starting out, write the book that you most want to write. It may take you a long time to finish it, and the market changes.

[SJAB]

Originally Posted by anhalo

Hi,


Also, I don't notice many fantasy books in the UK for the adult market... Should I be aiming at the teenage market with fantasy?

Best Regards,

Anhalo.

Errr... No fantasy books in the UK for the adult market? For starters take a look at;

http://www.orionbooks.co.uk/genres/s.../gollancz-blog

http://angryrobotbooks.com/

Suggest looking at Locus Magazine as well it will help you understand the market a bit.

[Anne Lyle]

Originally Posted by anhalo

I read Orson Scott's book on writing fantasy and science fiction a few days ago, and he thought that people should try and get a publishing offer before finding an agent.

As Teresa said, Card's book is twenty years old, and things have changed a lot.

It's certainly still possible, especially in SFF, to get a publishing offer first. It happened to me - but only through extensive networking on- and offline, I hasten to add. I met my publisher (Angry Robot, mentioned by SJAB) at a convention and pitched my book face-to-face.

But this is a rare occurrence - nowadays most writers get their agent first.

Originally Posted by anhalo

What are people's opinions on that here? And are there many people on here that are already published?

Teresa Edgerton, Ian Whates, Stephen Palmer, to name a few off the top of my head (my own book doesn't come out until next year).

Originally Posted by anhalo

Also, I don't notice many fantasy books in the UK for the adult market...

You can't be looking very hard, then

* Joe Abercrombie
* Mark Chadbourn
* China Mieville
* Richard Morgan
* Juliet McKenna

All British writers, all publishing non-YA fantasy right now. Add in all the non-British writers being published in the UK (Angry Robot's author roster is international, and they don't publish any YA) and that's an awful lot of adult fantasy.

It's true that there's not a lot of epic fantasy of the Robert Jordan / George R R Martin variety being published over here, but that's only one corner of the genre.

Originally Posted by anhalo

Should I be aiming at the teenage market with fantasy?

Write what you want, then let someone else decide who it should be marketed at. Myself, I can't write YA to save my life, my voice is wrong - too adult in tone (and I'm not talking about sex and violence!).

There's more money in YA, but if you can't get a publisher, it doesn't matter which market pays the best advances or sells in larger quantities.

[Ian Whates]

Originally Posted by anhalo

Hi,

I read Orson Scott's book on writing fantasy and science fiction a few days ago, and he thought that people should try and get a publishing offer before finding an agent.

What are people's opinions on that here? And are there many people on here that are already published?

The plain truth is that most publishers won't consider a book that hasn't come via an agent (agents provide the primary quality control filter), so the point is often moot.

As Anne says, there are exceptions, but they're comparatively few and far between.

[anhalo]

Thanks for everybody's feedback!

Very useful/interesting points made =)

And I know I may sound a bit idealistic asking about markets already, I'm just very business minded (can't help it). I can't even get a train without analysing how the train industry works (not that I plan to try and start a train company XD)...

[Anne Lyle]

You're welcome!

It's perfectly reasonable to be aware of current market trends - that's part of your "job" as a writer - but remember that getting from the point of first submitting your manuscript to agents, to actually signing a publishing contract can take anything from six months to two years or more, plus typically 12-14 months after that before the book comes out. (Recall I said earlier that my book - which I sold in March - is not due out until next year, and Angry Robot move fast by the general standards of the industry.)

So you have to look at long-term trends, not what's hot right now. I don't think YA is about to die out anytime soon, but no-one knows what the next big market or genre is going to be - and by jumping on one bandwagon, you could miss an even better one down the road!

[Elizabeth Bent]

Thanks for this information- I've been writing one story off and on for an embarrassingly long time now, and I'm positive the markets have shifted quite a lot since I started. A good story is a good story, though- I myself like all sorts of genres and will buy books if I think the author is a good writer, not because a book has a particular setting or is part of a particular genre. It's nice to hear advice from more experienced folks that validates the idea that you should write your story, do the best you can with it, then see if you can sell it.

As for getting an agent, that's something I'm hoping for once the manuscript I'm working on is finished. I'm making a few life changes that will hopefully translate into consistent progress on the one I have currently going, so I'm optimistic that this won't take too long. However, I've read on Gail Carriger's website that it took her ten years to sell her first novel, so I'm not expecting to be published immediately after that.

[Anne Lyle]

Originally Posted by Elizabeth Bent

However, I've read on Gail Carriger's website that it took her ten years to sell her first novel, so I'm not expecting to be published immediately after that.

How long is a piece of string? It only took me six months, but I was in the right place at the right time with the right book. When people say there's luck involved in getting published, that's what they mean, not that submission is a lottery.

[Stephen Palmer]

Every author's story is different - nothing can be generalised!

I spent 8 years trying to get published before being picked out of 10,000 manuscripts off the slush pile (that was over five years, I should point out). Seven novels later I still don't have an agent, though I am on the hunt...

[Freelancer]

Anhalo. My opinion about agents is usually not the best as they just hold me and my work back for two+ years. As they said, my work is unable to grab the attention of the audience and it cannot be marketed at all (And most of them rejected my work without even reading it, while most of my betas wondered why no one is publishing it.). Now, since I started to do everything, from marketing to cover design, the book already has few hundred followers on FB and few thousands on another networking site and the release date is still months away (And most published works has less fans or followers.).

As you've a business mind, here is a friendly advice; go self publishing. Every single writer is doing it nowadays. It's the easiest way and you also won't work for charity money while others going to be rich from your work (And you also will have full control.). You're a writer, that's your job. You don't need useless middleman to achieve your dreams.

Well, someone asked me recently; do I want to be a professional? My answer was; if this is professionalism, that thing what I experienced via agents, I don't want to be a professional anymore.

[Anne Lyle]

Originally Posted by Freelancer

As you've a business mind, here is a friendly advice; go self publishing. Every single writer is doing it nowadays.

Ahem. Not every single writer is doing it. Some of us have conventional book deals. A good writer is accurate in their use of language

Originally Posted by Freelancer

It's the easiest way and you also won't work for charity money while others going to be rich from your work (And you also will have full control.). You're a writer, that's your job. You don't need useless middleman to achieve your dreams.

It's not easier, just a different process. Easier to get into, certainly, but a lot more work if you want to do it right.

I'm not dissing self-pub, but you can't just slap a manuscript on Smashwords and call it a day. You need to choose a cover artist, hire an editor (or at least a proofreader), format your book, etc, etc. I wouldn't call my publishers useless middlemen - they know the business and they can get my book a wider distribution than just posting it on Amazon. Paperback, ebook, even audiobook - and I don't have to lift a finger.

Be aware that you will not get your SP book into bookstores. It's a legitimate route to kickstart your career, but don't kid yourself that it's easy or an automatic route to success.

When you've earned the same amount of profit from your self-pub venture as I have from my advance, then you can tell me it's the best option

[Ian Whates]

Originally Posted by Freelancer

As you've a business mind, here is a friendly advice; go self publishing. Every single writer is doing it nowadays.

Really, Freelancer? 'Every single writer'?

It's very nice of you to speak on behalf of me and every other published author here on the Chrons and elsewhere, but... No, sorry, not by a long shot. I've nothing at all against those who do go the self-publishing route, but that sort of sweeping generalisation is a nonsense.

[Freelancer]

Originally Posted by Anne Lyle

Ahem. Not every single writer is doing it. Some of us have conventional book deals. A good writer is accurate in their use of language

Personally I don't care about it on forums, especially as English isn't my native language.

It's not easier, just a different process. Easier to get into, certainly, but a lot more work if you want to do it right.

As I experienced it's not easier, especially when amateurs rules the business on the highest level. Talent doesn't comes with money. Being in power doesn't mean you're the right person there.

I'm not dissing self-pub, but to do it right you need to choose a cover artist, format your book, etc, etc. And also be aware that you will not get your book into bookstores. It's a legitimate route to kickstart your career, but don't kid yourself that it's easy or an automatic route to success.

As a pro artist I can do my arts. I also have a pro editor. And as my novel will be published as an ebook, I don't care that it won't be available in bookstores on day 1. If people like it, I'm going to arrange the bookstore business too. It's not a big deal.

When you've earned the same amount of profit from your self-pub venture as I have from my advance, then you can tell me it's the best option

I don't know how much you have earned as an advance and personally I don't care about it at all. During my itsy-bitsy writing career I earned a lot, but money is not about everything. And until I hear from my readers that my little fantasy work is unique, just as LOTR was in it's time, I don't give a damn about money at all. If the work is good, money comes with it. I work to write memorable stories. If it won't be appreciated by the present professional community, but if it will be appreciated by the readers, that's already enough to humble me.

[Freelancer]

Originally Posted by Ian Whates

Really, Freelancer? 'Every single writer'?

Okay, you're right. Not every single one. Around 75% of them. Are you happier? Most of the writers are leaving agents, because they have enough of the present system.