What comes first? The publisher or the agent?

[Ian Whates]

Originally Posted by Freelancer

Most of the writers are leaving agents, because they have enough of the present system.

Sorry but that simply isn't true, certainly not in the UK.

[Freelancer]

Originally Posted by Ian Whates

Sorry but that simply isn't true, certainly not in the UK.

It's true in the U.S. and it's alredy started in the U.K. too. One of the signs that Rowling also left her agent behind and turned to "indie" (If the news was true.).

[Anne Lyle]

Originally Posted by Freelancer

As I experienced it's not easier, especially when amateurs rules the business on the highest level. Talent doesn't comes with money. Being in power doesn't mean you do know what you do.

Are you talking about self-publishers, or the people in commercial publishing? Just because you had a bad experience, doesn't mean that all publishers are incompetent. Ian and I are with a highly regarded independent publisher with a lot of experience and talent - calling them amateurs is an insult to them and us.

Originally Posted by Freelancer

I don't care that it won't be available in bookstores on the day of the release. If people like it, I'm going to arrange the bookstore business too. It's not a big deal.

That's fortunate - because most book stores will not take self-published books, no matter how hard you try. I'm not being snarky here, or taking the high ground because I have a conventional publishing deal. It's the cold, hard reality of the bookselling business, at least in the US and UK (my husband is a sales rep).

[Anne Lyle]

Originally Posted by Freelancer

It's true in the U.S. and it's alredy started in the U.K. too. One of the signs that Rowling also left her agent behind and turned to "indie" (If the news was true.).

Yes, because JKR is so typical of self-publishers. The woman is a multi-millionaire and can afford to do whatever she wants, with a full staff of web developers and marketers. Hardly on a level playing field with Joe Bloggs and his debut novel...

[Ian Whates]

Originally Posted by Freelancer

It's true in the U.S. and it's alredy started in the U.K. too. One of the signs that Rowling also left her agent behind and turned to "indie" (If the news was true.).

Sorry, but I repeat, this is not true of the UK, not remotely.

Please don't judge trends within the industry by anything JK Rowling might do. Trust me, she's the exception in just about every imaginable way.

[Freelancer]

Originally Posted by Anne Lyle

Are you talking about self-publishers, or the people in commercial publishing? Just because you had a bad experience, doesn't mean that all publishers are incompetent.

I talked about agents. Agents != Publishers. However as I also worked with some publishers before I can tell you few stories about their incompetence too.

That's fortunate - because most book stores will not take self-published books, no matter how hard you try. I'm not being snarky here, or taking the high ground because I have a conventional publishing deal. It's the cold, hard reality of the bookselling business, at least in the US and UK (my husband is a sales rep).

My bad habit is that I used to surprise people, especially when someone is telling me; it's impossible. However I plan to sell my paperback edition via my itsy-bitsy website as I don't really care about bookstores, especialy as the paperback sales are dropping, while ebook sales are rising. There will be a paperback edition... a special limited hardcover edition.

[Freelancer]

Originally Posted by Anne Lyle

Yes, because JKR is so typical of self-publishers. The woman is a multi-millionaire and can afford to do whatever she wants, with a full staff of web developers and marketers. Hardly on a level playing field with Joe Bloggs and his debut novel...

You don't have to be a billionaire to do self-publishing. If you check my website, you'll see it too (It's in my profile). What do you think what was the cost of that site? Well, only the music had a license price and the domain had a price and that's all. Everything else is self made, including the arts. Marketing detto. And I'm not a billionaire. Not even close. Officially I'm Mr. writer no-name, without any real marketing and additional background. If I can do this, everyone else is capable to do the same. It's not a miracle. It's just hard work and endurance... something what all of us know since we started to write.

[Anne Lyle]

Originally Posted by Freelancer

I talked about agents. Agents != Publishers. However as I also worked with some publisher before I can tell you few stories about their incompetence too.

So? Not all agents and publishers are incompetent. You have to go into this business with your eyes open or you may well get ripped off. Pretty much like any other walk of life.

Originally Posted by Freelancer

My bad habit is that I used to surprise people, especially when someone is saying; it's impossible. However I plan to sell my paperback edition via my itsy-bitsy website as I don't really care about bookstores, especialy as the paperback sales are dropping, while ebook sales are rising. There will be a paperback edition... a special limited hardcover edition.

I wish you luck with that. If that's what will make you happy, that's cool. But you should make it clear what your aims are, because it's not what everybody wants out of their writing career.

[Freelancer]

Originally Posted by Anne Lyle

But you should make it clear what your aims are, because it's not what everybody wants out of their writing career.

My aim is very clear. Don't worry about it. Personally I don't plan to work with agents or publishers anymore. I won't spend another years from my life just to listen how "I'm the agent" guy is trying to tell me they know my world better than me, I don't want to listen false promises, and I don't want to listen the "be a team player and rewrite your work to a trendy mainstream cliche" talks.

The industry is changing and for our luck, now we have a choice.

[Anne Lyle]

Originally Posted by Freelancer

You don't have to be a billionaire to do self-publishing.

Well duh. But you're not going to sell hundreds of thousands of copies of your book like JKR either. Or even hundreds, most likely. As has been said, bringing the most famous author of the 21st century into the discussion is a total red herring. It's like me comparing my debut novel to the latest installment of George R R Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire".

I have no objection to your stated aims that you don't mind how much money you make. But you're comparing apples to oranges when you compare your own self-publishing efforts to a commercial publishing deal and saying one is equivalent to, or better than, the other.

[Freelancer]

Originally Posted by Anne Lyle

Or even hundreds, most likely.

Hundreds? Well... my novel has almost 300 followers on FB, which is already much more than most published novels, traditional or self published (And most of these followers joined in the last two weeks, while my work is not even published.). And the secret weapon is additional 2100+ followers on an additional network. That's 2400 and I haven't counted few additional sites. Now, if only 20% of them buys the book on the first week, just as they already written to me, that's already few hundred from the United States, United Kingdom, Canada and Australia. And I haven't started the true marketing as I still have time for that.

True. I won't sell hundreds of thousands. You won't sell either, while you're an agented writer. But in the digital age, there is no such thing as impossible. Selling our novel is all about marketing.

[Teresa Edgerton]

That's all very well, Freelancer, but having stated your opinion, why do you feel it necessary to keep pushing it on people who are reading this thread because they do want to go the traditional route and want to know whether to try for an agent before approaching a publisher?

And on what do you base this 75% figure? I've been in the business for 20 years and a member of this forum for almost seven, and I can say without a doubt that I have met as many writers who still wish to go the traditional route as I have self-published authors.

[Anne Lyle]

FWIW, I already have pre-orders on my book, just through hanging out on forums like this. Self-promotion isn't the prerogative of the self-published. It's just one marketing tool amongst many.

[Freelancer]

Originally Posted by Teresa Edgerton

And on what do you base this 75% figure?

Business analysis, based on the recent news. The problem is that even agents and publishers are trying to deny this, yet The New York Times also started to bury them on this week.

I have met as many writers who still wish to go the traditional route as I have self-published authors.

I have no doubts. Many wanted to go traditional prior this year. I also wanted to be one, but then some "kind" letters from some "I'm soooo professional" agents and this new "gold rush", thanks to Kindle and Smashwords have change my mind. The fact is, things have changed in the industry. Whoever is denying it... well, that one is not living in the reality. No offense.

EDIT: I forgot to answer this one.

That's all very well, Freelancer, but having stated your opinion, why do you feel it necessary to keep pushing it on people who are reading this thread because they do want to go the traditional route and want to know whether to try for an agent before approaching a publisher?

You got me wrong. I'm not feeling the necessity at all. You asked me and I just answered to your posts. If you wouldn't push it to convince me about your right, my only answer would be my first post in this thread.

[Freelancer]

Originally Posted by Anne Lyle

FWIW, I already have pre-orders on my book, just through hanging out on forums like this. Self-promotion isn't the prerogative of the self-published. It's just one marketing tool amongst many.

No one denied that and I believe no one is wondering. If you have pre-orders, I'm really glad. It's always good to hear if a fellow writer has a good day.