Lords of Creation: 2000th post critique

[TheEndIsNigh]

I think I satisfy the post count rules, but please let me know if I have to wait a while longer – say another 1000 posts.

Hi all.

So it’s come to this. My 2000th post which Ursa said it had to be a piece for critique. So with a heavy hand and a light heart I take up my quill and set about it. Some of you will know I have a WIP which has been mouldering on my hard drive since I found this evil place.

The following is a new sub plot, some way into the early chapters about one of my main characters called ‘Alain’. It reveals some of our hero’s early years and is a flashback he is having as he awaits, what he believes will be, his imminent death.

Does it flow?
In there too much head hopping?
Does it bore you to tears?

-------------

“Your brother will do well back there.” His father said, pointing his thumb back over his shoulder, “I had a private word with the Prior and he said most of the monks were second sons like our Simon”

Alain was unconvinced. He knew Simon would hate the place. It was everything Simon disliked; rules, timekeeping and observances that would appear pointless to his younger brother. Simon was carefree and spontaneous and preferred the challenge of the unknown to a well regulated life.

“Father, why are you doing this? You know he will hate it there. Yes he would do well but why can’t he just help in the business?”

They had left the monastery about an hour before to travel back to the family estate. It would be a long journey through rough and wild lands. It was unlikely they would have trouble this near the remit of the monks however, they had been at the monastery for some time and they needed to hone their senses to the dangers they faced. They both kept a lookout on the road, the hillsides and anything obvious that could provide cover for an ambush.

Alain’s father, Grift, was approaching his fiftieth year. He was relatively fit, given his long life, but knew he could be ‘recalled’ by The Maker at any time. He had seen the dangers of sibling rivalry amongst members of the Guild. It always led to trouble and loss of status; sometimes the families were wiped out as other guild members took their chance on the pickings. A Guild family needed one strong mind at its head. Alain was the eldest and so Alain would, and was, the more mature. The responsibility fell to him.

“Alain, would you rather I had your brother cast out to become an outlaw or dragged off to the army. This is best; it will secure him a safe future. He’ll get used to it; the Prior said they always do and then he will make something of his life”

“Well you could at least ask him.” Alain said. His father, like most, fathers could be stubborn. This was madness to Alain. Sim was only two years younger than himself and although, like all brothers, they had fought like dogs in the past, now they were older they both respected each other. Yes, either one of them could run the business, but together, they would make it grow.

“Do you think I do this lightly boy? He is my son and it grieves me to have to do this but the traditions must be observed; else all may be lost. You are the eldest son and you are the future of the family, not Simon. I have paid the Abbot the indenture. Simon will join the monks on his next birthday. That is an end of it; I will hear no more”

“But Fathe…”

“No more Alain; it is done”

Alain knew it was it would do no good to argue further. The stubbornness had set firm. He would have to speak to Simon when they got back and try to explain this was not what he had wanted. Somehow between the two of them this had to be resolved. For now the dangers of the road required attention.

For the next four days they travelled without incident. They stopped at smallholdings which, even this far out, were managed or rented from the monastery. On the fifth day they left the cultivated fields and farms behind and entered the border lands. This was potential bandit territory and they needed their wits on full alert.

They rose late and camped early. They ate at midday avoiding a fire if they could. Sometimes they caught small game which was cooked when the sun was high. That way if the smoke did attract unwelcome attention they would have time to loose potential ‘guests’ before they slept. Always they watched and listened and waited. Two men, even armed and able, would be no match for the larger gangs of bandits.

On the morning of the ninth day Alain woke Grift; his hand held firmly over his father’s mouth; his finger on his own lips in the universal sign for silence. Grift’s eyes wide at first signalled understanding. Alain nodded in the direction of the valley road below and removed his hand from his father. Grift immediately saw the five horsemen some 500 paces away. They had dismounted and seemed to be looking at the dusty road intently. Alain knew the men would be tracing the tracks he and his father had left the day before.

Scutt their leader, a wiry weasel of a man, looked up and down the road and addressed the other four

“They must be nearby because the tracks have gone. There are two of them on foot; one older than the other, the younger one taller and carrying weight.”

With a voice that expected immediate obedience he indicated the road back the way they had come.

“Cross and Shilve, you head back a bit and see if they doubled back. If you find anything give a shout; otherwise join us further up. If they are nearby they will have seen us so no need to act coy.”

Scutt and the other two walked their horses slowly looking for signs away from the road that would indicate where someone had left it. A turned stone or a snapped twig; it wouldn’t be near the road but some distance into the scrub.

Alain knew they would find the spot. These men were thorough and businesslike. His father had taken precautions but experienced trackers like this group would see the signs and read them like a map. Grift may as well have put up signposts saying ‘This way to the easy pickings’. Alain smiled. In effect that was exactly what his father had done if the group but knew it. He and his father were no ordinary travellers. They were guildsmen; trained in arms and capable. They had the advantage of high ground and surprise. Stupidly, although they were professional thieves, the bandits had not learnt their craft well. Firstly, they had separated and secondly they had underestimated their prey.

Alain drew back on the longbow…

[The Judge]

Congratulations, TEiN!!

Well done for reaching the dizzy heights and for posting a piece of your WIP -- I still haven't done that!

Right. I don't have time for a full critique at the moment, but I did see a few problems which need fixing. Your punctuation is a little adrift -- eg the opening sentence

“Your brother will do well back there.” His father said, pointing his thumb back over his shoulder, “I had a private word with the Prior..."

While this is technically correct, it's actually rather unwieldy and to my mind would be better either as the more usual

“Your brother will do well back there,” his father said, pointing his thumb back over his shoulder. “I had a private word with the Prior..."

or

“Your brother will do well back there.” His father pointed his thumb back over his shoulder. “I had a private word with the Prior..."

There are other places where punctuation has gone missing, eg "Yes he would do well" requires a comma after the "Yes".

To me, the head-hopping was too much, especialy as you tell us that this is a flashback as Alain is waiting to die -- I think in those circumstances you must keep it all in his POV rather than trying for an omniscient overview. I don't think you'd lose anything and you'd gain immeasurably. For my taste also, it was a bit info-dumpy, not just the paragraphs eg about Grift approaching his fiftieth year (a mere stripling, by the way...) but also the dialogue -- it didn't feel completely natural.

I also wonder about the tactic of starting where you do. I understand you want to get in about Simon -- though a little of that goes a long way, I feel -- but it's odd to start with dialogue on day one, then four days travelling summed up in a paragraph, then a strange bit which isn't quite clear if this is just day five or a blue print for all of them, then another four days until something happens. I'd suggest starting on day nine itself and something like "They were nine days out from the monastery when Alain tried again to speak to his father about Simon. Nine days of increasing tension as they moved further away from the cultivated fields and into the borderlands." You can then have a bit of their argument, as they're sitting at their noon-day meal, no smoke from the fire etc etc, when the approach of the bandits interrupts them.

And to my mind, I think it's a mistake to tell us too much about Alain and his prowess before the bandits strike. If we know that he and his father are professional bandit-killers, more than capable of taking care of these robbers, we'll be less concerned at their fate. I'd keep the explananatory stuff away, to let the reader think they are ordinary travellers, so we're more involved -- unless, of course, this is meant to show Alain's hubris, and the robbers actually do take them despite their skill.

Anyway, it's an interesting set up, and I'm liking the sound of Alain already. Now stop letting the rest of it moulder on your hard drive and get down to finishing it!

[alchemist]

A chance to critique TEiN? Who could pass on such an opportunity?

TJ has already covered some of the points I was going to make, but what the hey.

Originally Posted by TheEndIsNigh

“Your brother will do well back there.” His father said, pointing his thumb back over his shoulder, “I had a private word with the Prior and he said most of the monks were second sons like our Simon” as flagged by TJ, this needs to change.

Alain was unconvinced. He knew Simon would hate the place. It was everything Simon disliked; rules, timekeeping and observances that would appear pointless to his younger brother. Simon was carefree and spontaneous and preferred the challenge of the unknown to a well regulated life.

“Father, why are you doing this? You know he will hate it there. Yes he would do well but why can’t he just help in the business?”

They had left the monastery about an hour before to travel back to the family estate. It would be a long journey through rough and wild lands. It was unlikely they would have trouble this near the remit of the monks semi-colon or full stop however, they had been at the monastery for some time and they needed to hone their senses to the dangers they faced. They both kept a lookout on the road, the hillsides and anything obvious that could provide cover for an ambush.

Alain’s father, Grift, was approaching his fiftieth year. At first read, this head-hop felt well-done. However, as TJ says, these are Alain's memories, so it shouldn't really happen He was relatively fit, given his long life, but knew he could be ‘recalled’ by The Maker at any time. He had seen the dangers of sibling rivalry amongst members of the Guild. It always led to trouble and loss of status; sometimes the families were wiped out as other guild members took their chance on the pickings. A Guild family needed one strong mind at its head. Alain was the eldest and so Alain would, and was, the more mature. The responsibility fell to him.

“Alain, would you rather I had your brother cast out to become an outlaw or dragged off to the army. question mark This is best; it will secure him a safe future. He’ll get used to it; the Prior said they always do and then he will make something of his life”

“Well comma you could at least ask him. comma” Alain said. His father, like most, fathers comma here instead of before "fathers" could be stubborn. This was madness to Alain. Sim was only two years younger than himself and although, like all brothers, they had fought like dogs in the past, now they were older they both respected each other. Yes, either one of them could run the business, but together, they would make it grow.

“Do you think I do this lightly boy? He is my son and it grieves me to have to do this but the traditions must be observed; else all may be lost. You are the eldest son and you are the future of the family, not Simon. I have paid the Abbot the indenture. Simon will join the monks on his next birthday. That is an end of it; I will hear no more”

“But Fathe…”

“No more Alain; it is done”

Alain knew it was it would do no good to argue further. The stubbornness had set firm. He would have to speak to Simon when they got back and try to explain this was not what he had wanted. Somehow between the two of them this had to be resolved. For now comma the dangers of the road required attention.

For the next four days they travelled without incident. They stopped at smallholdings which, even this far out, were managed or rented from the monastery. On the fifth day they left the cultivated fields and farms behind and entered the border lands. This was potential bandit territory and they needed their wits on full alert.

They rose late and camped early. They ate at midday avoiding a fire if they could. Sometimes they caught small game which was cooked when the sun was high. That way if the smoke did attract unwelcome attention they would have time to loose lose potential ‘guests’ before they slept. Always they watched and listened and waited. Two men, even armed and able, would be no match for the larger gangs of bandits. you contradict this later when you tell us how skilled they are. Perhaps write "two ordinary men..." or just rephrase.

On the morning of the ninth day Alain woke Grift; (here's an issue: if the journey is so long - an 18 day roundtrip so far - and through such dangerous country, making two trips seems a huge undertaking. It would seem far more sensible to take Simon and dump him with the monks on this trip) his hand held firmly over his father’s mouth; his finger on his own lips in the universal it's universal to us, but do characters in a Fantasy world have a concept of universal? sign for silence. Grift’s eyes wide at first signalled understanding. Alain nodded in the direction of the valley road below and removed his hand from his father. Grift immediately saw the five horsemen some 500 personal preference here to write "five hundred" paces away. They had dismounted and seemed to be looking at the dusty road intently. Alain knew the men would be tracing the tracks he and his father had left the day before.

Scutt their leader, a wiry weasel of a man, looked up and down the road and addressed the other four fullstop. Even on first read, this head hop jarred. It's too much of a leap. In any event, if they're going to be dead soon, they don't warrant a perspective. You could cover most of these paragraphs from Alain's view e.g. "The leader directed two others go back and look for signs of their prey having doubled back."

“They must be nearby because the tracks have gone. There are two of them on foot; one older than the other, the younger one taller and carrying weight.”

With a voice that expected immediate obedience he indicated the road back the way they had come.

“Cross and Shilve, you head back a bit and see if they doubled back. If you find anything give a shout; otherwise join us further up. If they are nearby they will have seen us so no need to act coy.”

Scutt and the other two walked their horses slowly looking for signs away from the road that would indicate where someone had left it. A turned stone or a snapped twig; it wouldn’t be near the road but some distance into the scrub.

Alain knew they would find the spot. These men were thorough and businesslike. His father had taken precautions but experienced trackers like this group would see the signs and read them like a map. Grift may as well have put up signposts saying ‘This way to the easy pickings’. Alain smiled. In effect that was exactly what his father had done if the group but knew it. He and his father were no ordinary travellers. They were guildsmen; trained in arms and capable. They had the advantage of high ground and surprise. Stupidly, although they were professional thieves, the bandits had not learnt their craft well. Firstly, they had separated and secondly they had underestimated their prey. as TJ said, best to leave this out. Once A and G kick ass, it will be clear they're no ordinary travellers. It also looks like G deliberately left the signs. Is this intended?

Alain drew back on the longbow…

It's good, and I would read on, which is the important thing.

And congrats on the big 2K. I'll see you in about two years.

[svalbard]

Ok THEIN,

Do you want complete honesty or sycophancy? That is the question that faces you, as it does us all who put up work for critique. I have found you critiques very helpful and also straight to the point. I hope my critique is taking in the same vein.

Yes, the premise is good. The characters, not so. This is where we all build our story. Alain is the start point and then you have a sudden change of pov to Scutt. Back again to Alain.

I disagree with Judge, at this moment in the narrative there is nothing to like about Alain. He is nondescripted. Grift is not important, because he does not have any input apart from sticking his son in a monastery.

Context is where we come to. If this is the opening we would not need it because you are setting the scene. As an opening(if it is) this lacks a world context and a hook to grab a reader.

My appologies for such a harsh critique, but I hope that is what you would want. It is what I would anyway.

P.S.

Feel free to critique the grammar and spelling of my critique.

[telford]

Hello TEiN. In my humble opinion.

The flow is fine and is only jarred by the headhopping. Gad zoots sir, one pov at a time...please.

It's not boring and since it's not an opening chapter it provides the info succinctly. The set up for the ending is good but I think actions, with a later explanation, would work more effectively. Your call.

I would definately read on.

Nothing wrong with this that a single pov couldn't fix. Good luck.

[ctg]

Originally Posted by TheEndIsNigh

I think I satisfy the post count rules, but please let me know if I have to wait a while longer – say another 1000 posts.

Nothing of that kind in the rules Mister. Not at least in the written rules, but I'm glad you have decided to approach us with the piece of your writing, and to be honest, I think you should do so more often as you are not yet a published writer.

Does it flow? Not as well as it should.

Is there too much head hopping? A wee bit more than there should be. You must remember that I said a long time ago, if you want to head-hop, then by no mean do so, but stick to that head for a little while.

JJ told me long time ago to read Grimwood, and to be honest, maybe he wanted to show me that there are writers out there that head-hop. The way he does it isn't as elegant as what you see in the much more popular books like in the Harry Potter series.

So when you do head-hop, establish it either through the character transference, meaning that you do some sort of mind-melt or then use the storytelling elements that you can narrate through the omniscient narrator.

Does it bore you to tears? Yes, in places.

“Your brother will do well back there.” His father said, pointing his thumb back over his shoulder, “I had a private word with the Prior and he said most of the monks were second sons like our Simon”

Alain was unconvinced. He knew Simon would hate the place. It was everything Simon disliked; rules, timekeeping and observances that would appear pointless to his younger brother. Simon was carefree and spontaneous and preferred the challenge of the unknown to a well regulated life.

“Father, why are you doing this? You know he will hate it there. Yes he would do well but why can’t he just help in the business?”

I want to highlight this to you because it's good, but not as good as I believe you can achieve. At the start the dialogue is good, the action works, but when you move to the narrative, the prose isn't as good as it should be. And to correct that, I think you should try to take a tad closer look on how you write it.

For example, I think you could write it this way:

Alan felt unconvinced. He knew for the fact that Simon would hate that place. It was so much against his little brother's nature. The rules, timekeeping and not talking about the bloody observances...

"Father why are doing this?" Alan threw his hand in the air and glared the old man. "You know...


It's a bit faster pacing than what you have in the original prose. But in your shoes I would keep the reader in that drama for a bit, and extended it before I would move on to the next bit.

They had left the monastery about an hour before to travel back to the family estate. It would be a long journey through rough and wild lands. It was unlikely they would have trouble this near the remit of the monks however, they had been at the monastery for some time and they needed to hone their senses to the dangers they faced. They both kept a lookout on the road, the hillsides and anything obvious that could provide cover for an ambush.

Good description. Don't delete. Move it start later on; after you have exhausted the argument (the drama) completely.

Alain’s father, Grift, was approaching his fiftieth year. He was relatively fit, given his long life, but knew he could be ‘recalled’ by The Maker at any time. He had seen the dangers of sibling rivalry amongst members of the Guild. It always led to trouble and loss of status; sometimes the families were wiped out as other guild members took their chance on the pickings. A Guild family needed one strong mind at its head. Alain was the eldest and so Alain would, and was, the more mature. The responsibility fell to him.

This is what they call as head-hopping. You need to alter it. Make Alain to exhaust his arguments with Grift, and then stare at him. At there you can bring this in through his POV, before he uses his last line of argument.

Like for example you could write:

Alain stared at Grift. The old man was approaching his fiftieth year and over the years he'd not changed a bit, or then again, maybe someone else could had said that he'd changed a lot. That as the lines had grooved across his face, he'd grown more bitter, more stubborn than no one else.

"Father," Alain said. "You know what?"

"What?" Grift glanced at him.

"You are one stubborn old git."

"Right," Grift shifted his gaze back on the rolling hills, where the wind was flowing through the long grass, making it wave like waves in the sea. This land, this place was a true blessing from the Maker.

“Alain," Grift said slowly. "Would you rather I had your brother cast out to become an outlaw or dragged off to the army?" He turned around, clasped his bony fingers around Alain's shoulders and looked into his eye. "This is best; it will secure him a safe future. He’ll get used to it; the Prior said they always do and then he will make something of his life”

“Well, you could at least ask him.” Alain said. His father, like most, fathers could be stubborn. This was madness to Alain. Sim was only two years younger than himself and although, like all brothers, they had fought like dogs in the past, now they were older they both respected each other. Yes, either one of them could run the business, but together, they would make it grow.

I marked it to be removed as I think this bit of description should come earlier.

“Do you think I do this lightly boy? He is my son and it grieves me to have to do this but the traditions must be observed; else all may be lost. You are the eldest son and you are the future of the family, not Simon. I have paid the Abbot the indenture. Simon will join the monks on his next birthday. That is an end of it; I will hear no more”

“But Fathe…”

“No more Alain; it is done”

Good.

Alain knew it was it would do no good to argue further. The stubbornness had set firm. He would have to speak to Simon when they got back and try to explain this was not what he had wanted. Somehow between the two of them this had to be resolved. For now the dangers of the road required attention.

For the next four days they travelled without incident. They stopped at smallholdings which, even this far out, were managed or rented from the monastery. On the fifth day they left the cultivated fields and farms behind and entered the border lands. This was potential bandit territory and they needed their wits on full alert.

The second para needs work. I cannot put my finger on what is it, but I got a cut feeling that there are something wrong in it.

They rose late and camped early. They ate at midday avoiding a fire if they could. Sometimes they caught small game which was cooked when the sun was high. That way if the smoke did attract unwelcome attention they would have time to loose potential ‘guests’ before they slept. Always they watched and listened and waited. Two men, even armed and able, would be no match for the larger gangs of bandits.

On the morning of the ninth day Alain woke Grift; his hand held firmly over his father’s mouth; his finger on his own lips in the universal sign for silence. Grift’s eyes wide at first signalled understanding. Alain nodded in the direction of the valley road below and removed his hand from his father. Grift immediately saw the five horsemen some 500 paces away. They had dismounted and seemed to be looking at the dusty road intently. Alain knew the men would be tracing the tracks he and his father had left the day before.

You need to edit the second para. What I would like to see in it, is faster pacing, and a little bit less information.

Just make him wake up Grift, motion him to be silent and then point out to riders in the field.

Scutt their leader, a wiry weasel of a man, looked up and down the road and addressed the other four

“They must be nearby because the tracks have gone. There are two of them on foot; one older than the other, the younger one taller and carrying weight.”

With a voice that expected immediate obedience he indicated the road back the way they had come.

“Cross and Shilve, you head back a bit and see if they doubled back. If you find anything give a shout; otherwise join us further up. If they are nearby they will have seen us so no need to act coy.”

Scutt and the other two walked their horses slowly looking for signs away from the road that would indicate where someone had left it. A turned stone or a snapped twig; it wouldn’t be near the road but some distance into the scrub.

This is delivered from Scutts POV, so if you are going to do it, then stick to it till the end of the chapter.

Alain knew they would find the spot. These men were thorough and businesslike. His father had taken precautions but experienced trackers like this group would see the signs and read them like a map. Grift may as well have put up signposts saying ‘This way to the easy pickings’. Alain smiled. In effect that was exactly what his father had done if the group but knew it. He and his father were no ordinary travellers. They were guildsmen; trained in arms and capable. They had the advantage of high ground and surprise. Stupidly, although they were professional thieves, the bandits had not learnt their craft well. Firstly, they had separated and secondly they had underestimated their prey.

Alain drew back on the longbow…

Alain's POV.

[HareBrain]

I agree with the others about the head-hopping, especially if it's a flashback in Alain's memories. Where it jumps to Scutt's POV is very confusing, as it reads as though these are Grift's observations, which makes it seem that he can overhear the bandits at 500 paces**.

I also think you need to work on your punctuation, as TJ points out. The lack of commas before "but", and so on, make some of your characters' lines read in a flat monotone, as though they're being spoken by a very uninvolved actor. I'm not sure punctuation alone would solve this, though. I think ctg might have something with his "stubborn old git" suggestion; it feels "alive" in a way that some of them don't at the moment, with their feeling that they're just imparting information to the reader.

Have you tried acting them out loud? If not, then do so. Some of your dialogue lines I find very awkward to speak aloud, and it becomes immediately obvious, when doing so, how to reword them to make them more real.

Also, lines of dialogue beginning with the other person's name, when they are the only people there, usually feel unrealistic to me.

** Minor point, but would a good archer estimate distances in paces? (Unless there's no more "official" unit of measurement.)

[Boneman]

Hi Tein, and double congrats on reaching double figures in thousands. I haven't done a lot of critiquing recently, as I've been hell-bent on my own projects, but a 2,000 post entry is worthy of a good look - nice to see your work, anyway, so here goes... All my own opinion and there's a for-what-it's-worth attached to that. My bits in red... The Judge and others have pointed out punctuation and I'm sure Chris may be along anytime, so forgive me if I repeat.

I think you need to decide what about this piece is most important. Is it the background info on Simon, or is it the ambush? Because one is distracting from the other. But if some 'telling' were lost, it could tighten up the piece very well imho...

“Your brother will do well back there.” His father said, pointing his thumb back over his shoulder, “I had a private word with the Prior and he said most of the monks were second sons like our Simon”

Alain was unconvinced. He knew Simon would hate the place. It was everything Simon disliked; rules, timekeeping and observances that would appear pointless to his younger brother. Simon was carefree and spontaneous and preferred the challenge of the unknown to a well regulated life.
A goodly bit of telling there, and whilst it does inform us about Simon, what Alain says straight after it does it so much better. Maybe consider leaving the whole para out? Skipping to Alain's reaction, which in one sentence - 'you know he will hate it there' - does the job admirably. And it will avoid one head-hop (which is a problem in this piece)

“Father, why are you doing this? You know he will hate it there. Yes he would do well but why can’t he just help in the business?”
Not sure about that word 'business'... Can't say why I'm not sure either, but it seems a bit 'modern' for the setting. Maybe if he says 'the guild' instead? Small nitpick, that...

They had left the monastery about an hour before to travel back to the family estate. It would be a long journey through rough and wild lands. It was unlikely they would have trouble this near the remit of the monks however, they had been at the monastery for some time and they needed to hone their senses to the dangers they faced. They both kept a lookout on the road, the hillsides and anything obvious that could provide cover for an ambush.
And presumably they've had a long journey through rough and wild lands to get there? It's scene-setting, but a little distracting from the action in hand, I feel. It's not boring, it's trying a bit too hard. And if they're on good horses, [edit: see below...]an hour's ride would be quite a long way from the monastery, unless the monks are roaming in their 'territory'. And later you say it's only the fifth day that the land becomes the border lands, potential bandit country... too many contradictions, I fear.

Alain’s father, Grift, was approaching his fiftieth year. He was relatively fit, given his long life, but knew he could be ‘recalled’ by The Maker at any time. He had seen the dangers of sibling rivalry amongst members of the Guild. It always led to trouble and loss of status; sometimes the families were wiped out as other guild members took their chance on the pickings. A Guild family needed one strong mind at its head. Alain was the eldest and so Alain would, and was, the more mature. The responsibility fell to him.
Now this is Grift's pov, and it's more telling, to get us up to speed about the families, but it's dragged us away from the action in hand again. Consider leaving it out? And bringing the info in, either in Grift's reaction, (or will we already know about the Guild etc from previous parts of the book?), or in Alain's, would strengthen what it's about. Because effectively, you're saying having two brothers in a guild 'family' always leads to loss of status and trouble. Doesn't Alain know this? Not sure it's well enough understood here - the Kray Twins didn't have a problem working with each other...
“Alain, would you rather I had your brother cast out to become an outlaw or dragged off to the army. This is best; it will secure him a safe future. He’ll get used to it; the Prior said they always do and then he will make something of his life”
Are you saying those are the only choices? Be in a guild family or be cast out, or join the army? Very draconian society, this. Presumably Grift feels Simon will amount to nothing, something that Alain kinda alluded to in the 'freedom' he preferred, but is he a wastrel?

“Well you could at least ask him.” Alain said.Which tends to suggest that Simon may have a choice His father, like most, fathers could be stubborn. This was madness to Alain. Sim was only two years younger than himself and although, like all brothers, they had fought like dogs in the past, now they were older they both respected each other. Yes, either one of them could run the business, but together, they would make it grow.
And now we're in Alain's pov, and he's arguing for the both of them to be in the business.

“Do you think I do this lightly boy? He is my son and it grieves me to have to do this but the traditions must be observed; So it's tradition? One son in the business, one not? else all may be lost. You are the eldest son and you are the future of the family, not Simon. I have paid the Abbot the indenture. Simon will join the monks on his next birthday. That is an end of it; I will hear no more”

“But Fathe…”

“No more Alain; it is done”
And strangely, all the way down to here could be done solely in dialogue... like this:
“Your brother will do well back there.” His father said, pointing his thumb back over his shoulder, “I had a private word with the Prior and he said most of the monks were second sons like our Simon”

“Father, why are you doing this? You know he will hate it there. Yes he would do well but why can’t he just help in the business?”

“Alain, would you rather I had your brother cast out to become an outlaw or dragged off to the army? This is best; it will secure him a safe future. He’ll get used to it; the Prior said they always do and then he will make something of his life”

“Well you could at least ask him.” Alain said.

“Do you think I do this lightly boy? He is my son and it grieves me to have to do this but the traditions must be observed; else all may be lost. You are the eldest son and you are the future of the family, not Simon. I have paid the Abbot the indenture. Simon will join the monks on his next birthday. That is an end of it; I will hear no more”

“But Fathe…”

“No more Alain; it is done”

And Grift's stubborness and Alain's reservations have come over really well in the strength of your excellent dialogue... Then we can concentrate on the ambush, and it's moved on very quickly.


Alain knew it was it would do no good to argue further. The stubbornness had set firm. He would have to speak to Simon when they got back and try to explain this was not what he had wanted. Somehow between the two of them this had to be resolved. For now the dangers of the road required attention.
I'm in a real 'deleting' mood today, but I think this para could go. It's all telling. It's inherent in Alain's character that he'd do it, not sure we need to be told. Then the next para comes more naturally, a good change of action and so much left unsaid about their relationship, but the reader's got it firmly in his mind.
For the next four days they travelled without incident. They stopped at smallholdings which, even this far out, were managed or rented from the monastery. On the fifth day they left the cultivated fields and farms behind and entered the border lands. This was potential bandit territory and they needed their wits on full alert.I'd cut the last sentence... More tension if it's left unsaid The 'border lands' says it all...

They rose late and camped early. They ate at midday avoiding a fire if they could. Sometimes they caught small game which was cooked when the sun was high. That way if the smoke did attract unwelcome attention they would have time to loose lose potential ‘guests’ before they slept. Always they watched and listened and waited. Two men, even armed and able, would be no match for the larger gangs of bandits.Erm... it's just occured to me that Alain and his father are walking. Is that correct? Because it said 'travel back' I understood they were on horses, silly me. Being guildsmen and their own business, I just thought they'd have their own mounts. So from here on I'm assuming they're walking. Anyway, rather than tell us the smoke would attract attention, I'd lose that sentence and go from '...sun was high' to 'Always they watched and....' Leaving it to our imagination seems to heighten the tension a bit better.

On the morning of the ninth day Alain woke Grift; his hand held firmly over his father’s mouth; his finger on his own lips in the universal sign for silence. Grift’s eyes wide at first signalled understanding. Alain nodded in the direction of the valley road below and removed his hand from his father. Grift immediately saw the five horsemen some 500 paces away. They had dismounted and seemed to be looking at the dusty road intently. Alain knew the men would be tracing the tracks he and his father had left the day before.
So, how to get round the pov change? One way could be just to have a

***

And then hit us with 'Scutt looked up and down the road, and adressed the other four'
Scutt, their leader, a wiry weasel of a man, looked up and down the road and addressed the other four

“They must be nearby because the tracks have gone. There are two of them on foot; one older than the other, the younger one taller and carrying weight.”

With a voice that expected immediate obedience he indicated the road back the way they had come.

“Cross and Shilve, you head back a bit and see if they doubled back. If you find anything give a shout; otherwise join us further up. If they are nearby they will have seen us so no need to act coy.”

Scutt and the other two walked their horses slowly looking for signs away from the road that would indicate where someone had left it. A turned stone or a snapped twig; it wouldn’t be near the road but some distance into the scrub.
Then here, another ***
to show us time has passed and then the section where Alain wakes his father - the reader knows some bad guys are coming, he's expecting it, and we can slip into Alain's pov so much easier.And stay with it until the end. So it would be like this:
For the next four days they travelled without incident. They stopped at smallholdings which, even this far out, were managed or rented from the monastery. On the fifth day they left the cultivated fields and farms behind and entered the border lands.

***

Scutt was a wiry weasel of a man. He looked up and down the road and addressed the other four.

“They must be nearby because the tracks have gone. There are two of them on foot; one older than the other, the younger one taller and carrying weight.”

With a voice that expected immediate obedience he indicated the road back the way they had come.

“Cross and Shilve, you head back a bit and see if they doubled back. If you find anything give a shout; otherwise join us further up. If they are nearby they will have seen us so no need to act coy.”

Scutt and the other two walked their horses slowly looking for signs away from the road that would indicate where someone had left it. A turned stone or a snapped twig; it wouldn’t be near the road but some distance into the scrub.

***

On the morning of the ninth day Alain woke Grift; his hand held firmly over his father’s mouth; his finger on his own lips in the universal sign for silence. Grift’s eyes wide at first signalled understanding. Alain nodded in the direction of the valley road below and removed his hand from his father. Grift immediately saw the five horsemen some 500 paces away. They had dismounted and seemed to be looking at the dusty road intently. Alain knew the men would be tracing the tracks he and his father had left the day before.

Alain knew they would find the spot. These men were thorough and businesslike. His father had taken precautions but experienced trackers like this group would see the signs and read them like a map. Grift may as well have put up signposts saying ‘This way to the easy pickings’. Alain smiled. In effect that was exactly what his father had done if the group but knew it. He and his father were no ordinary travellers. They were guildsmen; trained in arms and capable. They had the advantage of high ground and surprise. Stupidly, although they were professional thieves, the bandits had not learnt their craft well. Firstly, they had separated and secondly they had underestimated their prey.

Alain drew back on the longbow…

And that's my easter sixpennyworth. I hope it helps, if not, ignore it!!

[TheEndIsNigh]

OK I think I got away with it (No too many limbs lost in the melee)

First off thanks to everyone who posted critiques.

It is interesting that the problems highlighted were there. It's amazing what you can miss when you're close up to a problem.

Anyway in response to the comments

J:

Yes I suspected the head popping would be a problem. Reading it again there was more than I originally intended. All but the Scutt part is meant to Alain's thoughts. Where it appears that Grift is putting his two cents in, is meant to be Alain's understanding of what his father thinks. I've made it more obvious in the re-write.

As for the punctuation, I'm guilty as charged. In my defense, I offer the fact I'm only a man.

As for the flashback problem - I'm not sure about it. By that I mean if that's a problem then maybe this section has to be included before he gets to his imminent death flashback. This would actually make sense because, as a flashback, it's getting pretty long.

I'll rethink the time hops/passing bits.

alchemist: Interesting you felt the first head hop read well. Unfortunately, this was meant to be Alain's thoughts about his father. See J: above.

regarding the apparent contradiction about the gang. I'll try and stress what they would consider a large group to be; say twenty.

The two trips - the only method of getting messages is to go there and find out - low tech planet.

Finger on mouth - yes, I need to think about that.

I'll pre-qualify Scutt's section with a

Down on the road Scutt, the gang's leader

- or some such, to make it obvious we've changed heads - would that work do you think?

Kicking ass ability will already have been established earlier. So it would be OK drop the able to take care of themselves part, as it would be repetitive.

Svalbard:

Always prefer the honest ones myself. I didn't find your comments harsh at all.

Telford: Points taken please note above.

CTG: It's true, it's not an official rule but, it's kind of talked about in the 1000 post club.

Re. head hopping, there are some comments above that I hope will reduce this.

Other comments taken on board - See the response to Boneman's comments too.

HB: Head hopping please see other responses. Regarding the punctuation guilty.

The comment about the 500 paces is well made. I wanted it to be non Earth standard, but paces does seem a bit crude. I'll think something up. He isn't a good archer as such - more an all rounder.

Boneman: I agree entirely with you about the dialogue. However, there have to be places where I can slip in a bit of world-building, otherwise I think it will be all dialogue.

Not too keen on the asterisks technique, although it's a perfectly good suggestion. The book has a quite a few main characters that often have to have thoughts in and about the dialogue sections. I think if I use the asterisks there would be great swathes of text with just asterisks every other line.

However, Point taken, I may have to rethink. See my response to alchemists and let me know if you think that would work.

Once again all; thanks for the comments.

You did help

TEiN

[Boneman]

Hi Tein,

yes, I agree with Alchemist on that bit - and I was assuming that there'd been some worldbuilding going on before, so we knew quite a bit about it already, from what you said about Alain looking back from some way into earlier chapters. But you're right: on it's own, that first bit of dialogue would only work if we knew quite a bit about their world/relationships. I do tend to use the asterisks myself for passage of time, and I guess I've got used to it. Since four days pass, and you've set up the tension of the borderlands, opening in the pov of Scutt would be okay, as we'd be expecting to get back to Alain and his father anyway.

[TheEndIsNigh]

New updated attempt.

The action takes place around chapter two. The story is SF.

This is a early life background stuff. I've decided to drop the flashback idea and have it just as is.

Our hero is not long for this world. He will soon be taken off his home planet, so his skills with weapons will be less important.

I've tried to separate the scenes and make the POV changes more obvious.

Is it any better/worse?

“Your brother will do well there.” his father said, pointing his thumb back over his shoulder, “I had a private word with the Prior, he said most of the monks were second sons, just like Simon”

Alain was unconvinced. He knew Simon would hate the place. It was everything Simon disliked; rules, timekeeping and observances. Simon was carefree and spontaneous; preferring the challenge of the unexpected to a well regulated life.

“Father, why are you doing this? You know he will hate it in there, why can’t he just help in the business?”

They had left the monastery about an hour before to travel back to the family estate. It would be a long journey through rough and wild lands. It was unlikely they would run into trouble this near the remit of the monks however, they had been at the monastery for some time and they needed to hone their senses to the dangers they faced. They kept a lookout on the road for anything obvious that might suggest trouble.

Alain knew the basis of his Grift's fears. He was approaching his sixtieth year, although he was still relatively fit, his father knew his time was overdue. Even Alain had seen the dangers of sibling rivalry amongst the families of the Guild.

“Alain, would you rather I cast your brother out to become an outlaw, or pack him off into the army? This is for the best; it will secure him a safe future. The Prior said novices soon get used to the regimen. After he does, Simon will be able to make something of his life.”

“Well you could at least ask him what he wants,” Alain said. He knew his father could be stubborn, but this was madness.

“Do you think I do this lightly boy? He’s my son and it grieves me to have to do this; the traditions must be observed or all may be lost. You are the eldest son and you are the future of the family, not Simon. I have already paid the Abbot the indenture. Simon will join the monks on his next birthday. That is an end of it; I will hear no more.”

“But Fathe. . .”

“No more Alain; it is done”


Alain realised it was useless to argue further. His father’s stubbornness had set firm and to do so would make it worse. He would speak to his mother when they got home; maybe she could make his father see sense. For now, the dangers of the road required their attention.

They established their usual routine for travelling; rising late and camping early. They ate at midday and midnight; keeping a constant eye for anything unusual. Two men, even armed, would be no match against a large gang of twenty bandits, but even a small group needed to be avoided if possible.

On the morning of the ninth day Alain woke Grift; his hand held firmly over his father’s mouth; his finger on his own lips as a sign for silence. Grift, his eyes wide at first, signalled understanding. Alain nodded in the direction of the road below and removed his hand.

“At first it seemed they would pass by” Alain whispered.

Below them, on the road about two hundred paces away were five riders. Three of them had dismounted and seemed to be looking at the dusty road intently. Alain knew the men would be tracing the tracks he and his father had left the day before.

* * *

Down on the road, Scutt, the leader, a weasel of a man, addressed his men.

“They must be somewhere around here, we need to find them. There are two of them on foot; one older than the other, the younger one taller and carrying weight. Cross and Shilve, you head back a bit to see if they doubled back. If you find anything, give us a shout; otherwise, join us further up.”

Scutt and the other two slowly walked their mounts, looking for any signs that someone had left the road. A turned stone, a footprint or a snapped twig: whatever it was wouldn’t be close to the road, but some distance into the scrub. He quickly spotted the discarded branch that had been used to obliterate the footprints. Even though it was twenty paces away, he could see the end was freshly cut. Further up the hill, he noticed where a small bolder that had been dislodged and rolled down the slope.

"There," he said, nodding his head in the direction of the branch.

The men with him followed his gaze.

"Yes," they said in unison.

Scutt looked further up the slope. The stone must have come from above. Sure enough, almost directly in line with the branch and the stone, he could make out what appeared to be, a cave.

* * *

Alain watched as they approached the branch. These men were thorough and businesslike. His father had taken precautions, but experienced trackers, like this group, would see the signs and read them like a map. Grift may as well have put up signs saying, ‘This way to the easy pickings’. Alain smiled: in effect, that was exactly what his father had done. He and his father were not ordinary travelers. They were guildsmen; trained in arms and capable. They had the advantage of high ground and surprise. Stupidly, although they were professional thieves, the bandit's were sloppy in their craft. Their leader had separated his men and he had underestimated his prey.

Alain drew back on the longbow . . .

[ctg]

Very good. Nice build up on tension and excellent drama. This reads like it came out from a professional writer's head.