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Old 2nd June 2011, 10:17 AM   #121 (permalink)
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Re: Pre-Egypt Technology

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Originally Posted by RJM Corbet View Post
But how do you date stone?
It can't be carbon dated.
You can carbon date the paint on a wall, or the bones around it, but not the stone itself.
The age of the stone is immaterial (). The "pavement" is either a deliberate arrangement of paving stones, an area of the underlying rock that has been worked to make a pavement, or a mixture of both.

It is the need for a human hand in its creation that is in dispute, not what it's made of. I'm assuming Mr Hancock has reasons why he believes that the structure was a man-made pavement. All he has to do is take these reasons and prove, one by one, that he's correct in his belief (which, presumably, means showing that nature couldn't produce the effects, or that so many unlikely natural processes would need to have been involved that the most likely cause is man).
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Old 2nd June 2011, 10:22 AM   #122 (permalink)
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Re: Pre-Egypt Technology

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The age of the stone is immaterial ...
Sorry, I was going back to the great pyramid there, not Japan.

Regarding the latter: these guys are begging for someone to study them properly. Scubaring around for a few minutes and then giving a verdict that can be interpreted 50/50 at best is not a proper investigation.

I accept that they could, just possibly, be natural formations -- in which case they would be a geological freak of nature and earn a special place in the geology books. You would have to study the foundations and surrounding bedrock to say anything conclusive about them, really?

There are very few straight lines and right angles in nature. They occur in crystals, of course, but seldom in rock formations -- like the Giants Causeway in Ireland.

On the other hand, they do look a lot like man-made structures ...

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Old 2nd June 2011, 10:37 AM   #123 (permalink)
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Re: Pre-Egypt Technology

Oh, sorry.

As it happens, there are examples of paint. I've just been glancing at the New Scientist article on the investigations into those tunnels that reach up from the Queen's Chamber. (The picture they've used seems, to me, to be of Pyramid of Khafre, not Khufu. *shakes head* ) Inside the hidden chamber (i.e. beyond the first blocking stone), there are hieroglyphs written in red paint. If a sample could be taken, that should provide some sort of date. (I suppose, the hieroglyphs might even include a written date.)

The location of those hieroglyphs would make it more than unlikely that they could have been written by Ancient Egyptians millennia after a suggested earlier date of construction.
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Old 2nd June 2011, 10:44 AM   #124 (permalink)
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Re: Pre-Egypt Technology

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The location of those hieroglyphs would make it more than unlikely that they could have been written by Ancient Egyptians millennia after a suggested earlier date of construction.
Well, 'grave robbers' are supposed to have somehow entered the 'great' pyramid and stolen everything, including the mummy from the sarcophagus, and then replaced the 6 ton lid and re-sealed it with cement, and then tidied up so carefully after themselves that they left not a single trace of their intrusion ...

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Old 2nd June 2011, 10:53 AM   #125 (permalink)
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Re: Pre-Egypt Technology

The location is 63 metres up a tunnel that's 20cm square. Between an intrepid climber and the chamber is a block of stone. A hole was drilled through this in 2002 (i.e. nine years ago). The recent investigation required using a camera on the end of a flexible, and controllable, stalk.

As there is one hole, and we know when it was drilled (2002), no tomb robber could have seen the inside of that chamber, let alone painted anything. And why would they paint anything if they were there to steal treasure? Why would a tomb robber have paint? How could they paint through solid stone? That would make the Ancient Egyptians (i.e. not the fictional civilisation from 10000BCE) not only far more advanced than us, but in possession of technology we only see, if at all, in SF.
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Old 2nd June 2011, 11:05 AM   #126 (permalink)
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Re: Pre-Egypt Technology

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The location is 63 metres up a tunnel that's 20cm square. Between an intrepid climber and the chamber is a block of stone. A hole was drilled through this in 2002 (i.e. nine years ago). The recent investigation required using a camera on the end of a flexible, and controllable, stalk.

As there is one hole, and we know when it was drilled (2002), no tomb robber could have seen the inside of that chamber, let alone painted anything. And why would they paint anything if they were there to steal treasure? Why would a tomb robber have paint? How could they paint through solid stone? That would make the Ancient Egyptians (i.e. not the fictional civilisation from 10000BCE) not only far more advanced than us, but in possession of technology we only see, if at all, in SF.
Mmm I know about a shaft. They sent a robot up and it just came to another stone partition. But that's not where the 'khufu' glyph was found. It was in one of the higher 'hidden' chambers above the 'king's chamber'. But the entrance to the pyramid wasn't known until recently? Yet it appears people were in and out of there in the past closing up after them? If they had the ingenuity to do that it wouldn't be a great surprise that they also scrambled up into the 'hidden' chambers?

Yes, it's surprisng no-one has carbon dated that glyph. Or perhaps they have and it fits the 'model', which proves nothing ...

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Old 2nd June 2011, 11:09 AM   #127 (permalink)
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Re: Pre-Egypt Technology

They could have scrambled up as far as the first blocking stone, but the chamber is on the other side of it, out of reach. But why take any paint? And why only paint on the walls they couldn't reach (!) but not the ones they could? As far as I can tell, just about every creator of a graffito wants it to be seen (although that may not be the case with all builder's marks).
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Old 2nd June 2011, 11:20 AM   #128 (permalink)
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Re: Pre-Egypt Technology

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They could have scrambled up as far as the first blocking stone, but the chamber is on the other side of it, out of reach. But why take any paint? And why only paint on the walls they couldn't reach (!) but not the ones they could? As far as I can tell, just about every creator of a graffito wants it to be seen (although that may not be the case with all builder's marks).
Are you referring to the 'great' pyramid here?
A builder's mark? Yes, possibly ...
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Old 2nd June 2011, 11:23 AM   #129 (permalink)
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Re: Pre-Egypt Technology

It isn't the only hieroglyph: they were showing the one in the top chamber (the one with the sloping ceiling above the King's Chamber) on the TV as recently as Monday evening.
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Old 2nd June 2011, 11:26 AM   #130 (permalink)
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Re: Pre-Egypt Technology

Well I'll have to brush up on recent developments before taking this further and making a twip of myself with usubstantiated statements, ok? Any suggestions?
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Old 2nd June 2011, 11:37 AM   #131 (permalink)
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Re: Pre-Egypt Technology

The programme should be on iPlayer, though as the scene in the top chamber was a minute or two long, the whole programme was an hour-and-a-half long long (and its material could have been fitted into 45 minutes), I'm not sure if I should recommend it.
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Old 2nd June 2011, 12:19 PM   #132 (permalink)
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Re: Pre-Egypt Technology

I'll see what I can find, but in the meantime I've watched again the video with which SB launched this thread and come away with the same 'phew' factor. Is it by coincidence that the apex of the Great Pyramid marks the intersection of the longest LAND latitude and longitude lines and that the sides are precisely facing the cardinal points of the compass?

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Old 2nd June 2011, 12:37 PM   #133 (permalink)
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Re: Pre-Egypt Technology

Yes I watched that program Ursa, and thought there was rather a lot of fluff around a few very interesting facts. One other of which does impinge on this discussion. It now seems possible that the Egyptian population around that time was an order of magnitude bigger than had previously been thought meaning the available pool of workers to draw on for monumental construction was much higher than originally thought.

Oh and just a comment on another post from earlier. Granite is very hard, much more so than limestone and certainly you could not cut it with a bit of copper; you couldn't even cut limestone with just a piece of copper (at least not effectively). However both limestone and granite can be cut very effectively by sand! And that is almost certainly what was done. Much harder with granite of course but still doable.

In fact the pyramid of Menkaure (the smallest of the three Giza pyramids) was started with granite and the first 16 courses are all granite (including the facing stones). There is a good picture half way down the wiki page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_of_Menkaure showing the two types of stone. This picture also shows that the granite facing stones were not all finished. The Wiki page does not say much about why they switched from granite to limestone but when I was out there the accepted theory seemed to be that it was simply taking them too long to work so much granite and then Menkaure died was buried in the pyramid and his son finished the job (as was quite common and is well documented by the ancient texts). However whilst his son might have felt obliged to finish the pyramid he didn't feel obliged to make quite as expensive a job of it as his father may have wished. This is also shown in the temple complex associated with that pyramid which was started in granite and then finished in mud brick.

Incidentally the fact that many of the granite facing stones were not finished has allowed archeologists to get a much better idea of the processes they used to do this job (though I haven't dug too much into their findings).
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Old 2nd June 2011, 12:48 PM   #134 (permalink)
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Re: Pre-Egypt Technology

Here's a link to proper data about the Great Pyramid. In spite of the title, which appears to use the word 'mystery' in the simple sense of questions to be answered, it appears not to be a mystico mumbo-jumbo article, and it looks quite comprehensive, so far:

www.world-mysteries.com/mpl_2.htm
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Old 2nd June 2011, 01:07 PM   #135 (permalink)
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Re: Pre-Egypt Technology

That's not a bad site in many ways it gathers together quite a lot of data (although some of its references cite nothing better than Wiki as a source). However as you say it poses the questions without too much speculation. Which is fine; it would be quite extraordinary if we could ever find out everything from that period and had no more unanswered questions. Not going to happen.

One interesting thing to my mind about the discovery of places like Gobekli Tepe (SB's more recent vieo link) is that it just goes to show how much is still out there to be discovered. It's always going to be hard to find stuff over 10000 years old, so it's no surprise we haven't found many other similar sites. Most would probably have been cannablised over the centuries (try and find an old house built anywhere near Hadrians wall that doesn't have part of that ancient wall in its own walls!). It also highlights the fact that if humans were building structures like Gobekli Tepe 12000 years ago then we shouldn't really be too surprised to find that techniques for working stone had advanced sufficiently for the Egyptians to construct their pyramids some 5000 - 7500 years later.
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