U.F.O. Sightings

[Starbeast]

Originally Posted by mosaix

Perhaps it was swamp gas.

It's easy to become panicked by something that is difficult to explain. The thing is what is more likely? Marsh gas, laser display or aliens locating the Earth from across the galaxy, travelling here and whilst hiding most of the time, sometimes make the mistake of letting us see them?

But the point is that rational human beings, who make every day decisions about their lives on the basis of probability, suddenly suspend this rationality when they see something they can't explain - but would like to explain by something that they long to come true.

Originally Posted by skeptical

Sometimes the explanation is even simpler and more mundane than that. A couple years ago, I was part of a hoax relating to UFO's. A bunch of us sent up, at night, a whole lot of helium filled balloons, each carrying a tiny light. We let them go over the city. A pure hoax.

And there are the attention seekers. People will make claims in order to gain attention. I suspect that a lot of the UFO sightings by 'responsible observers' like airline pilots fit into this category. Those guys will, for attention or even just for a laugh, invent a story.

The biggest variable in claims of ghosts, UFO's psychic ability etc is the human element. People seek attention. People set up hoaxes. People are self deluded. Add to this the occasional genuine natural phenomenon that can be misinterpreted, and you need not hypothesize about alien visitors.

You both make great valid points on explaining about what we see is not always what it is, I'm well aware of that fact when I use illusions for magic as entertainment.

The 1952 Washington D.C. - U.F.O. Incident
may finally be admitted as fact of an outworlder presence.

Some believe they were trying to make contact with humans,
others believe they wanted us to know that they are real,
and a few believe they were showing us that they don't fear humans.

[The Procrastinator]

Thank you boys, it is possible that weird refraction effects could be responsible. Yes Skeptical it is well inland, you can find it on a map if you like - Coonabarabran is our nearest town, and the forest in question is the Pilliga (aka "the million wild acres"). Not quite arid but heading in that direction. The point in favour of your refraction effects theory is that inland Australia gets amazing temperature variation in winter, and the Coonabarabran area can get a slightly more exaggerated version of this due to being both westerly (warmish days) and elevated (freezing nights). It is not unusual for the temperature to go from 16 C (60.8 F)during the day then down to -4 C (24.8 F) overnight. I cannot remember what the conditions had been that day, but considering it was a cold clear night heading for a frost, it was probably a sunny warmish day. Would this be enough to account for the right conditions?

What gives me pause, however, is the mechanical regularity of the flashing light. As I said it looked like a very bright star, and at first I thought it was an aircraft simply because the light pulse was so regularly spaced. The movement, though, was like nothing any aircraft I have heard of could achieve, not even a helicopter. (Also there was no noise whatsoever - which rules out aircraft nearby - cold winter nights are particularly good at carrying sound, and the only silent manmade object I've seen is a satellite - and satellites don't flit about flashing - but it is conceivable that a weird refraction effect was occurring with something too far away to be heard).

What Starbeast has quoted above sounds very much to me like some kind of refraction effect. What I saw did not dance, spin or zip - what it did do was disappear and reappear at measured time intervals (you could have set your clock by it) but at unpredictable locations within a limited space in the sky. So it doesn't precisely gel with the other examples quoted, but at this stage its the only explanation I've heard. I can't say I'm completely convinced it was an aircraft, but it must be possible. Distance, heat and light can do some very strange things after all!

Thank you for your thinking caps skeptical and Starbeast.

[Williamlk]

Originally Posted by Starbeast

I've gotton a lot of reports from people who see what look like bright stars zipping around in the starry night skys. A close cousin of mine told me this same story about twenty years ago, and a close friend who lived in Jordan told me he saw these fast moving lights on a starry night in the 1970's. I often wonder what these U.F.O.s are doing, sending signals to us or to other U.F.O.s, or are they just having fun flying around in the upper atmosphere.

I think they may have given up on us a long time ago.

[Starbeast]

Originally Posted by Williamlk

I think they may have given up on us a long time ago.

Perhaps for some outworld races, a number of ancient civilizations say the people from the stars promise to return, I hope people don't freak-out when that happens. I'd like to see them return in my lifetime, and I hope they're friendly and not hostile or evil.

[J Riff]

Welllllll... I think Skyline, the new invasion flick, is a bit extreme...but, realistically, IF they come here.. regularly... it's to pick something up. Like lifeforms... and take them away. They won't stay for lunch, may only take a few hours and they will be off to continue their shopping trip. Scary, huh?

[J Riff]

Well, anyway... it's what I'm slowly writing an entire book about - The Invasion syndrome, except it doesn't have to be a real invasion, simply exploring the endless possibilities of what could happen, IF Aliens ever showed up.
Hadn't seen those clips - Thanks StarBeast.

[Peter Graham]

Like I said, I could tell you amazing things

You can tell me anything you like. The Surgeon told people he'd taken a picture of Nessie. The Bradford girls told people they'd taken pictures of fairies in a back garden in Cottingley. Both of them managed to convince experts - in the Cottingley case, the photographic plates were sent to Kodak who apparently swore that they had not been tampered with and that the images were not paper cut-outs from Edwardian childrens' books. Which, in fact, they were. Mediums told people that large bedsheets were ectoplasm.

The real question is can you prove it? You keep hinting that you can and hinting that you have the sort of background which makes your views more credible (ex military and naturally sceptical), but then you find reasons not to do so. Firstly, you said there was no point trying to convince people who won't believe. So I told you I would believe if you could convince me. Which is true. So now you tell me I have to do my own research. But there isn't a lot of point me doing that if you have already done it. So I ask again, will you prove your claims?

A few grainy pictures and snippets of footage might be evidence of something in the sky, but they aren't evidence of "otherworlders" in the sky. And in any event, we need to know a lot more about the circumstances under which the pictures were taken (and by whom) before we can definitely accept them as "genuine". If two ten year olds with Daddy's camera and a pair of scissors could convince Edwardian Britain that fairies really existed, then what a suitably technology literate individual could do nowadays really could be quite something.

GOD would be my only witness and believer that I experianced fantastic beings from elsewhere.

Interesting side issue. Did God also create aliens or is he only our God?

this world is filled with illusions (like the governments),

Government isn't an illusion. They really do exist, although I accept you might be talking about Orwellian smoke and mirrors.

for example I could make a large coin disappear in my hands (with my sleeves rolled up) while you're standing in front of me and it would seem like real magic.

But this is precisely my point. It might seem like real magic, but in fact it isn't. It's just sleight of hand. Now, anyone who doesn't understand sleight of hand and who is ready to believe in the existence of magic could easily see the trick as evidence of true magic. They film you doing it, then post it online with a comment saying this must be genuine, as it was witnessed by X people and the chap who did it was a sober minded ex-military type.

The footage you have been posting in this thread is far more likely than not to be the equivalent of one of these sleight of hand tricks. To prove otherwise is going to involve rather more and rather better quality evidence.

Regards,

Peter

PS: I'm really not setting out to attack you, so if you want to end this conversation, please just say so.

[ScrambleEggHead]

So the lens cap was at an oblique angle, and with a little touch up in photo shop -Voilla! We have a black pancake that flys under telephone wires. Fascinating. The night 3 friends of mine and I saw some real UFO's they weren't black, and they were way to fast for anyone to get out thier cameras. These are pretty cool though:

YouTube - 1/4/07 UFO - Denver Colorado meteor shower - space junk?

[skeptical]

It is also worth while taking into account human psychology in these discussions.

We all know the story of the trout that grew.
A fisherman catches a 30 cm trout. He tells his friends, and holds his hands 35 cms apart to illustrate the size. A year later, he is holding his hands 40 cms apart, and 5 years later, it is 50 cms.

The fisherman is not being dishonest. His memory has been modified through repeated tellings of the story, and he now firmly believes his prize trout was 50 cms.

Exactly the same thing happens with UFO stories. What started as a mere blink of something black, becomes stable, and larger, and then fast moving with repeated telling of the story. UFO stories, like trout stories, grow with each telling, and the story teller does not even realise that his memory is changing.

[Parson]

Which in a semi related way, proves that old stand by of advertising, the personal testimonial, is about as bad a way to discover if something is good as there is. And yet any survey will find that the personal testimonial is the MOST TRUSTED!

It just makes me sad.

[Starbeast]

Originally Posted by ScrambleEggHead

So the lens cap was at an oblique angle, and with a little touch up in photo shop -Voilla! We have a black pancake that flys under telephone wires. Fascinating. The night 3 friends of mine and I saw some real UFO's they weren't black, and they were way to fast for anyone to get out thier cameras. These are pretty cool though: - Denver Colorado meteor shower -

Originally Posted by Parson

Which in a semi related way, proves that old stand by of advertising, the personal testimonial, is about as bad a way to discover if something is good as there is. And yet any survey will find that the personal testimonial is the MOST TRUSTED!

It just makes me sad.

It makes me sad too, I only began this thread because I wanted others to talk about strange things they've encountered like: strange flying craft or alien sightings. Within a short tme, I find myself in the midst of a "witch trial", defending myself so I don't sound like a crazy person. I don't mind people telling me they don't believe until they see it for themselves, I've dealt with that for thirty years. If I can't convince a few family members and friends what I've experianced myself, how can I convince a total stranger. All I'm doing is posting bits of information on the subject, I wanted to hear what others think, I even recreated an image of exactly what I saw (first post) to get the thread started.

I guess I only wasted my time with this thread, so.....

Has anyone ever heard of the Disclosure Project?

[mosaix]

Starbeast - please don't anything that's been said personally, the Chrons isn't like that.

UFO's, I suppose a bit like religion, contain a large element of belief. You either believe or you don't. I personally don't, but by stating that I didn't intend any personal attack - I'm just stating my point of view.

[skeptical]

Starbeast.

If you raise a subject towards which there is widespread scepticism, do not be surprised if the response is sceptical. None of that is personal towards you.

As far as I am concerned, my non de plume describes me well. I demand strong and credible evidence for anything that I am to believe. I follow the adage " extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." In doing so, I am not attacking you personally. I am just remaining consistent.

The suggestion that some UFO's are extraterrestrial is an extraordinary claim. It requires extraordinary evidence. To date, I have never seen such a claim that I cannot explain in a mundane way. It is true that my explanations may sometimes be wrong. However, they are still more likely than the suggestion that aliens are exploring our world.

It would be easy for me to form a hypothesis to explain your own sighting. My hypothesis might be wrong, since there is no obvious way to test it. But the alien idea is still way less probable.

[ScrambleEggHead]

Originally Posted by Starbeast

It makes me sad too, I only began this thread because I wanted others to talk about strange things they've encountered like: strange flying craft or alien sightings. Within a short tme, I find myself in the midst of a "witch trial", defending myself so I don't sound like a crazy person. I don't mind people telling me they don't believe until they see it for themselves, I've dealt with that for thirty years. If I can't convince a few family members and friends what I've experianced myself, how can I convince a total stranger. All I'm doing is posting bits of information on the subject, I wanted to hear what others think, I even recreated an image of exactly what I saw (first post) to get the thread started.

I guess I only wasted my time with this thread, so.....

I apologize Starbeast, in re-reading - I did come off a bit inimical. My friends and I were in a fairly dark canyon, where one of us lived at the time, I guess it was 1989 or so, and these lights were oval shaped; too bright to be reflections on clouds, and they were so fast that they could cross about 100 degrees of the sky in roughly one second. there were four of them, and they did a pattern in flight that one would be prone to call "choreographed". it wasn't random at all, and they all flew off in the same direction together. The fact that allows me to tell this story (in comfort) is that there were four of us, and we all saw the same thing. It doesn't mean that because you see something by yourself, that it wasn't real. I've had other strange things happen while I was alone, and I've found that it get's me in trouble when I tell others. The best one can do, I suppose, is to tell your most trusted friends, and hopefully they will be more obliging. Again, no harm was meant, I was just being playful.

[Starbeast]

Originally Posted by mosaix

UFO's, I suppose a bit like religion, contain a large element of belief. You either believe or you don't. I personally don't, but by stating that I didn't intend any personal attack - I'm just stating my point of view.

I understand, no worries. It's difficult to grasp if you're never seen one up close.

Originally Posted by ScrambleEggHead

In re-reading - I did come off a bit inimical. The fact that allows me to tell this story (in comfort) is that there were four of us, and we all saw the same thing. It doesn't mean that because you see something by yourself, that it wasn't real. I've had other strange things happen while I was alone, and I've found that it get's me in trouble when I tell others. The best one can do, I suppose, is to tell your most trusted friends, and hopefully they will be more obliging. Again, no harm was meant, I was just being playful.

I understand, no worries. That's why I keep a great deal about the subject to myself.

Originally Posted by skeptical

If you raise a subject towards which there is widespread scepticism, do not be surprised if the response is sceptical. None of that is personal towards you.

As far as I am concerned, my non de plume describes me well. I demand strong and credible evidence for anything that I am to believe. I follow the adage " extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." In doing so, I am not attacking you personally. I am just remaining consistent.

The suggestion that some UFO's are extraterrestrial is an extraordinary claim. It requires extraordinary evidence. To date, I have never seen such a claim that I cannot explain in a mundane way. It is true that my explanations may sometimes be wrong. However, they are still more likely than the suggestion that aliens are exploring our world.

It would be easy for me to form a hypothesis to explain your own sighting. My hypothesis might be wrong, since there is no obvious way to test it. But the alien idea is still way less probable.

Very understandable, no need for you to waste your time with this subject. What I saw was probably a top secret military aircraft, that would explain the many slow and low flying jet fighters were flying my neighborhood the next day (late afternoon). I remember one jet fighter that flew really low and slow right where I saw the strange disk-shape craft, he was traveling so low that I could see the pilot, and he looked right at me. I'll never forget how uncomfortable I felt when he looked at me.