Before They are Hanged - Joe Abercrombie

[soulsinging]

Originally Posted by biodroid

I can't remember if have asked this before but here goes anyway, is The First Law trilogy similar-ish to ASOIAF? I would like to get into GRRM but didn't really stick with it, more to do with me than the book I think. Loving BTAH so far and it's building up nicely.

They have some similarities, but I don't think they're all that similar. First Law has more action, is told on a bit smaller scale, and has a lot more dark humor. ASOIAF is very epic. It took me until halfway into the second book to finally get into ASOIAF because it doesn't quite have the same pace and has far more characters to pay attention to. There's a scope and heft to it that isn't in the First Law.

[Bup]

Originally Posted by soulsinging

To me, they're directly connected. People are busy making their plans, but life happens without any regard to those plans.

Since we aren't in synch regarding the conclusion, this sentence can have two meanings. If we think like I do regarding the end, then the above sentence is 'misery will get you, just you wait' which might be true, but it shouldn't be one's guiding words.
If we think like you regarding the end, i.e mixed fortunes, then the above sentence comes closer to how I think of 'Life is what happens when you make other plans', though your way of phrasing appars to imply that we're on a boat on a lake we just discovered was a violent ocean and the boat is a log and your oar is a male platypus, i.e not necessarily grim, but with no measure of control whatsoever. If you agree that this is how we disagree, then I trust we can agree to disagree.



Glokta is a bully, a personality type I can only stand in a literary character if it is tempered with a certain charm or some other saving grace. Glokta has bits of dark humor, but those are few and diluted.
Bayaz is the archetype of megalomaniac, not afraid to walk over any corpse (we know he killed the Maker and his daughter, and it is my interpretation that he killed Juvens as well). Yeah, it goes rather well for him, see my formula above. Ferro becomes a thing of the ..underworld, or whatnow it was called that the Seed was made of, which I think changes a person rather thoroughly. Love for her was rather hopeless from the start, I guess it is entirely so now. Logen has no more friends in the North, so I'd say he is worse off, but then he pretty much deserved to die horribly. As for the people in the North, didn't Bethod put and end to infighting or do I remember that wrong? And aren't lots of those sub-human constructs of the Maker still around up there?

"No man can change"
"No one gets what they deserve"
"Nothing changes for the better"
"Power makes all things right" - these things sound like strifey parts of Africa.

As previously mentioned, I suspect another part of why the ending seems so inky is because the first book is so hilarious and so very different.

[soulsinging]

Originally Posted by Bup

If we think like you regarding the end, i.e mixed fortunes, then the above sentence comes closer to how I think of 'Life is what happens when you make other plans', though your way of phrasing appars to imply that we're on a boat on a lake we just discovered was a violent ocean and the boat is a log and your oar is a male platypus, i.e not necessarily grim, but with no measure of control whatsoever. If you agree that this is how we disagree, then I trust we can agree to disagree.

(Spoiler)


Glokta is a bully, a personality type I can only stand in a literary character if it is tempered with a certain charm or some other saving grace. Glokta has bits of dark humor, but those are few and diluted.
Bayaz is the archetype of megalomaniac, not afraid to walk over any corpse (we know he killed the Maker and his daughter, and it is my interpretation that he killed Juvens as well). Yeah, it goes rather well for him, see my formula above. Ferro becomes a thing of the ..underworld, or whatnow it was called that the Seed was made of, which I think changes a person rather thoroughly. Love for her was rather hopeless from the start, I guess it is entirely so now. Logen has no more friends in the North, so I'd say he is worse off, but then he pretty much deserved to die horribly. As for the people in the North, didn't Bethod put and end to infighting or do I remember that wrong? And aren't lots of those sub-human constructs of the Maker still around up there?

"No man can change"
"No one gets what they deserve"
"Nothing changes for the better"
"Power makes all things right" - these things sound like strifey parts of Africa.

I think I agree that that's how we disagree, so we'll have to agree to disagree. Because that's basically exactly how I interpret it to be.

I suppose it is all a matter of perspective as you say. I think I've got a bit more love for the not so nice protagonist. I loved Glotka and you don't seem to think too highly of him, same for Logen. I detested Jezal, so maybe that's why our views on the endings are different. I felt some people did get what they deserved, others didn't, some things changed for the better, and others didn't. I'm still not seeing the Africa comparison, if you ask me it's as comparable to the USA as it is to Africa. Some people benefit beyond what they deserve, others are ground under the boot of an indifferent society by those seeking personal gain... pretty western capitalist to me!

[Connavar]

The problem with epic,heroic fantasy is the likeable hero are in every book it seems. Why cant there be more Gloktas....

Logen i almost rolled my eyes against first time i saw him. The heroic barbarian. But Glokta i thought hm what is this guy about. Thats important in adventure fantasy.

[Toby Frost]

I've just noticed something kind-of-similar about Memory, Sorrow and Thorn and The First Law that I don't feel works very smoothly in either. Also I've worked out how to do spoilers. Here goes:

In MST, Simon's rise to kingship feels forced in order to give him a happy ending. In TFL, West's decay (and it seems pretty inevitable death) feels forced in order to give him an unhappy ending. Both feel somewhat crowbarred in to keep with the feel of the rest of the books. In Simon's case, he is in line to go back to being a comparatively low-ranking person (albeit a knight rather than a peasant) and lose the girl: in West's, he is in line to become a war hero and live happily ever after. Now, I realise that MST isn't mindlessly cheery, but it is in a non-cynical setting where heroics generally work out and luck tends to favour the bold and honest, with a couple of exceptions. It would seem weirdly sour for it all to fail like that. Similarly, West has become a much better person and has worked hard and honestly to succeed. By the internal logic it would seem inappropriate for things to turn out ok for him. Both feel quite arbitrary.

That said, MST and TFL are some of the best fantasy I've read for years, if not decades.

[soulsinging]

Originally Posted by Tobytwo

I've just noticed something kind-of-similar about Memory, Sorrow and Thorn and The First Law that I don't feel works very smoothly in either. Also I've worked out how to do spoilers. Here goes:

That said, MST and TFL are some of the best fantasy I've read for years, if not decades.

Intersting point there, and I somewhat agree. His fate was the one thing that really bothered me about First Law. It did feel rather arbitrary, like it was just going for shock.

I'd have to disagree on MST though, I got about 100 pages into book 2 and had to quit. I was tired of Simon crying and I'd already solved one of the big "mysteries" (missing sword... it was so painfully obvious the moment its existence was revealed) and couldn't believe it took 3 more books for the supposedly intelligent characters to get there. It had its moments, but there was so much unnecessary filler and exposition I couldn't bring myself to go on.

[Toby Frost]

I see what you mean. My only real issue with MST was the willingness of the author to let Simon wander around lost. I can think of at least three points in the series where he tries to find his way, gets hungry and somewhat delusional, and eventually escapes/is rescued. These do feel realistic, in that they capture the experience quite well to my mind, but they go on a bit.

As regards the mysteries, I didn't mind. I was expecting a slightly predictable, slightly Tolkeinesque fantasy epic, and the fact that MST moves away from this quite considerably, as well as being well characterised, was more than enough for me.

[Devil's Advocate]

Originally Posted by Connavar

Logen i almost rolled my eyes against first time i saw him. The heroic barbarian. But Glokta i thought hm what is this guy about. Thats important in adventure fantasy.

"Heroic barbarian" is hardly an accurate description of Logen, I think. I agree, though (as I suppose most will), that Glokta was the best character.

Regarding West - for some reason, his fate (and I agree that the disease probably does kill him) didn't seem surprising to me. Maybe it's because I realised Abercrombie wasn't the "happily ever after" kind of writer, but I had sort of expected that West's fate would be sad and pitiable, rather than pleasant. I liked how his final meeting with Glokta showed what was likely the last vestige of humanity left in the new Arch Lector. I feel Glokta, after this, becomes a complete and utter ruthless bad-ass.

Overall, as I stated before, I was perfectly satisifed with the ending(s). I thought it all fit with the general mood and setting of the story.

[Connavar]

Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate

"Heroic barbarian" is hardly an accurate description of Logen, I think. I agree, though (as I suppose most will), that Glokta was the best character.

Regarding West - for some reason, his fate (and I agree that the disease probably does kill him) didn't seem surprising to me. Maybe it's because I realised Abercrombie wasn't the "happily ever after" kind of writer, but I had sort of expected that West's fate would be sad and pitiable, rather than pleasant. I liked how his final meeting with Glokta showed what was likely the last vestige of humanity left in the new Arch Lector. I feel Glokta, after this, becomes a complete and utter ruthless bad-ass.

Overall, as I stated before, I was perfectly satisifed with the ending(s). I thought it all fit with the general mood and setting of the story.

No matter how you like Logen you must see him as the millionth version of Conan the barbarian....
Heroic only because he is one of the good guys. I dont want say anymore since i have read only the first book.

Nothing wrong with that if you write him well. I found him interesting in the end of the first book.

Glokta was more interesting from page one because you havent read a million him before.

[biodroid]

On page 400 now and I tell you this is one of the best books I have read in years. I am going to push to finish it before I go on leave so that I can start a new book when I am on holiday. Will have to start reading about 30-40 pages a day to keep up with my goal of finishing it in the next 2 weeks. Slow reader

[biodroid]

OMG, what an ending to this book. It was quite an emotional end and can't wait to start the next one.

[I, Brian]

Really enjoyed Before They Are Hanged - very well paced and keeps it all up relentlessly.

Bit disappointed with the expedition, perhaps for obvious reasons - but still fun, nonetheless.

[I, Brian]

Btw, Before They Are Hanged contains the best sex scene I've ever read. Those who've read it will know what I mean (ie, L+F).

[Tragedy]

Finished the book, LOVED the ending. A rock! All that for a rock. Brilliant.

I especially loved parts in the North and South and found the journey of the adventurer's quite tedious. Well, not really. I just did not like F/L action sequence #24, etc. It was tolerable in the first book, but it was just too much in this one.

Yes, the sex scene was quite nicely done. And even better than that was Jezal's reaction, his reversion to despising them again for a brief period.

But in scope, the Union looks ******. Bethod's held his own in the North AND has got Shanka and the Emperor was defied by the Union. Add in the succession problem and we have got ourselves a hell of a story in LAOK. Cant wait to get into it.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Connavar

Logen i almost rolled my eyes against first time i saw him. The heroic barbarian. But Glokta i thought hm what is this guy about. Thats important in adventure fantasy.

The subtle point is that Logen isn't a hero - read Last Argument of Kings and you might see that more clearly.