Does free will exist?

[Urien]

Chinook,

Under the all knowing omni idea of god, he knows all the possibilities and he knows what the outcome will be. He cannot be surprised by what we do; alpha and omega, he knows with absolute certainty the primary and end state of his creation. In other words he's built a complex clock and we are just the workings therein. We do not under that premise have free will, we imagine we do, the many paths we appear to face are in reality merely the one god knows with absolute certainty that we will take.

[Ursa major]

Originally Posted by Parson

"Ninety-five percent of Great Britain is going to hell unoffended."

I'm doing my best (to offend them, that is), believe me.

[Parson]

Originally Posted by Ursa major

I'm doing my best (to offend them, that is), believe me.

You have yet to offend me. But I have been know to groan when somethings punny.

[Chinook]

Originally Posted by Urien

Chinook,

Under the all knowing omni idea of god, he knows all the possibilities and he knows what the outcome will be. He cannot be surprised by what we do; alpha and omega, he knows with absolute certainty the primary and end state of his creation. In other words he's built a complex clock and we are just the workings therein. We do not under that premise have free will, we imagine we do, the many paths we appear to face are in reality merely the one god knows with absolute certainty that we will take.

I understand what you are conveying, and I would not disagree with it if I believed it was in fact the case. The part we don't agree on is that God knows which choice you will choose. All I said was that he knows all of the possibilities. You are asserting this assumption that God knows "the end state of his creation". What I am suggesting is that God knows that no matter what happens here in the material world, everything will be alright - no matter how it goes. So he does not know what the outcome will be; at least not here in this existence. (He only knows all of the possible outcomes). What I believe is that this life is a mere drop in the ocean of what you will experience now that you exist. You will carry on into the next world to have a wonderful awakening, and only then will you see this world for what it really is.

Happy trails,

- Chin.

[HareBrain]

Chinook, if God is to mean anything at all, then surely God would have to exist outside of time, which is part of creation. In which case God will always know everything that will (i.e. in our future) happen.

[HareBrain]

Originally Posted by Parson

But I am utterly committed to evangelical Christianity and so I must always ask myself the questions "When does my toleration become duplicity in propagating a lie? Are people losing their chance for eternal salvation because I did not want to offend someone?"

Parson, I've long wondered about this aspect of evangelical Christianity. How do you arrive at the compromise between living a normal life (and maintaining normal relations with people who don't share your religious views) and your perceived duty to save others?

[Chinook]

Originally Posted by HareBrain

Chinook, if God is to mean anything at all, then surely God would have to exist outside of time, which is part of creation. In which case God will always know everything that will (i.e. in our future) happen.

Dear Brain, We are arguing semantics. I said God knows all of the possible outcomes. In a sense, that is the same as knowing everything. What I am saying (and after this I'm going to throw my hands in the air and give up if you guys don't get it) is that God does not have to know how it "ends". He is infinite, and so are you. It isn't necessary for God to know in advance what you will do with your life. God will be right there when your physical life ends, and you will review what you have done. That will determine what happens in your next life. Goodnight all,

- Chin.

[Interference]

I support the premise that God, or the Reality that we identify by that name, persists throughout all the dimensions, including Time. However, I also suggest that time is not immutable, or that it is as mutable as space and all other dimensions as well.

If God is a consciousness, then I also suggest that our perception of consciousness is the closest we can ever come to understanding God or God's will, which is why the expansion of mortal consciousness is of such importance to so many people.

As to whether God knows the future or not, I suspect He does inasmuch as He is in and of Himself the representative of Infinite Awareness, therefore knows Time in all its dimensions.

Does God's knowledge of the future affect our free will? Not a jot. Whether we have free will or not is inconsequential since, should God choose to intervene, we would either have a choice do follow His guidance or not according to our whim or have no choice in the issue and create the future already laid out for us.

However, I suggest that Infinite Time isn't very much affected by the choices made in this moment or the next any more than the action of a butterfly can really cause a hurricane.

[Chinook]

Originally Posted by Parson

But I am utterly committed to evangelical Christianity and so I must always ask myself the questions "When does my toleration become duplicity in propagating a lie? Are people losing their chance for eternal salvation because I did not want to offend someone?" Ian Leitch, a great Scottish evangelist once said: "Ninety-five percent of Great Britain is going to hell unoffended." I hope he's wrong about that, but I worry about things like this.

The rule I try to live by in interpersonal relationships is a simple golden one: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Which would sometimes include hauling me up short, looking me in the eye, and saying "Think about what you've just said."

Parson, You seem like a truly caring person, and I admire that. You might also consider caring for yourself. God loves you, and therefore wants the best for you. Personally, I don't believe God wants you to worry so much.

After all, were you somehow involved in the creating of 95% of the British population? (If you were, I'd say you've been a very naughty boy! )

Let God worry about them, and teach where you don't find resistance. When you argue with people over their ideals, it tends to make them hold onto them more tightly. Peace,

- Chin.

[Chinook]

Originally Posted by Interference

I support the premise that God, or the Reality that we identify by that name, persists throughout all the dimensions, including Time. However, I also suggest that time is not immutable, or that it is as mutable as space and all other dimensions as well.

If God is a consciousness, then I also suggest that our perception of consciousness is the closest we can ever come to understanding God or God's will, which is why the expansion of mortal consciousness is of such importance to so many people.

As to whether God knows the future or not, I suspect He does inasmuch as He is in and of Himself the representative of Infinite Awareness, therefore knows Time in all its dimensions.

Does God's knowledge of the future affect our free will? Not a jot. Whether we have free will or not is inconsequential since, should God choose to intervene, we would either have a choice do follow His guidance or not according to our whim or have no choice in the issue and create the future already laid out for us.

However, I suggest that Infinite Time isn't very much affected by the choices made in this moment or the next any more than the action of a butterfly can really cause a hurricane.

Very well said, my friend. Love is. (period)

[Parson]

Originally Posted by HareBrain

Parson, I've long wondered about this aspect of evangelical Christianity. How do you arrive at the compromise between living a normal life (and maintaining normal relations with people who don't share your religious views) and your perceived duty to save others?

Perhaps it is just semantics, but I have no duty to save others, that's God's business. My duty is to bear witness to the truth that is mine through Christ my savior. So, I try to live in such a way that God can use me in whatever way he desires to bring his plan for salvation into the world. The Christian life is about deep personal relationships with Christ and others. Out of those relationships arise the ability and opportunity to bear that witness.

I do not go around like the mythical gunslinger looking for opportunities to "put a notch" on my gun. But I do pray regularly that God will send into my life the people I can share Christ with, and with whom I can be in ministry.

Obviously this mind set leaves me little question about the free will question. The problems for me come from the other side. [See previous post regarding how I have come to hold these two Biblical concepts together.]


This also gets at what Chinook posted:

Parson, You seem like a truly caring person, and I admire that. You might also consider caring for yourself. God loves you, and therefore wants the best for you. Personally, I don't believe God wants you to worry so much.

After all, were you somehow involved in the creating of 95% of the British population? (If you were, I'd say you've been a very naughty boy! )

Let God worry about them, and teach where you don't find resistance. When you argue with people over their ideals, it tends to make them hold onto them more tightly. Peace,

- Chin.

I agree Chin, God does not want me to worry over the results. The results are always in his hands. My desire is to be a stepping stone for others to grow in a relationship with Jesus Christ, and not a stumbling block for them to trip over.

The point of my earlier post was that I am afraid that our present age has lifted the worthy ideal of toleration to the level where it is worshiped rather than respected. Some things and some people need to be confronted rather than tolerated.

[Nik]

As some-one who's been Agnostic since about the age of seven (7) when I accidentally falsified a then-tenet of RC, I'd invoke Catastrophe Theory: Only at cusp points does 'Free Will' have any global significance.

Against that, sometimes hard work and/or genius can create a cusp point, allowing leverage.

Irrespective of that, allowing evil to flourish, however briefly, may be counter-productive: Game Theory goes through several iterations before agreeing...

[Chinook]

So, all things in moderation, including moderation?

(actually more of a reply to Parson regarding "tolerance", which by the way, I consider to be a spiritual virtue in most cases. I do get your point Parson, although I must admit that the lack of tolerance shown by some religious factions results in their unpopularity with the populous. You don't need God to figure out why those results occur.)

[Werewoman]

Originally Posted by Parson

W Woman,

You have my undying respect. The only way a cycle of violence stops is when someone says "I will not retaliate" or every opponent is dead. To me this is about as close to a proof of free will as there is. Every instinct for survival would seem to say I am going to finish them off before they can finish me off.

This is the true Christian ethic at it's core. One of the parts of the Bible that always brings me to tears is the picture in Acts of Stephen being stoned to death and yet praying "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."

W Woman -- Thanks for letting your ethics overrule you hormones!

The Parson with tears in his eyes.

If you had any idea all the times I have looked to the heavens and quoted Stephen...with tears in my eyes.

Originally Posted by The Judge

I echo Parson's comments Werewoman. Family members of mine were also assaulted -- sexually and otherwise -- as children, so I have a little knowledge of the kinds of things it can do to the innocent. That you have overcome these horrors says a great deal about your strength and character. I sincerely hope that the future brings better things for you and your family than the past has done.

I don't know that I can help overmuch with the legal points, as there are differences between jurisdictions. It's also been quite a while since I undertook any criminal defence work so to do anything comprehensive and accurate I'd need to spend some time on it. But basically, never forget that though people may raise things as defences, that doesn't mean those defences are accepted**, nor that they are complete defences to the crime. I personally haven't heard of any case where someone has cited 'ordinary' stress, for instance due to disability or ill-health or homelessness, as being an excuse for murder, and I can't believe it would ever be accepted as such. Mental health is different, though, because there are some people whose brains are so disordered they simply don't understand the difference between right and wrong any more than an animal would - hence they are not guilty by reason of insanity***. Their actions aren't excused, in the sense they are forgiven, but it is recognised that they can't be punished in the same way as a sane person, since they haven't the necessary mental capacity.

** In point of fact I once acted for a woman whose violent husband was threatening her. He ultimately killed her (in front of their son). The husband argued he was temporarily insane. His defence was rejected by the jury, I am delighted to say, and he was sentenced to life imprisonment. (How much he probably served is another matter, regrettably.)

*** this can actually cover a wide spectrum of things, and gets very complicated very quickly, I'm afraid.

I know in most cases where people claim 'temporary insanity' it's really just an excuse. I find it very disturbing the way the press throws it around. All it seems to do is make it harder for those of us who suffer from mental illnesses. I am no more dangerous than the next person. In fact, I am probably less so in that I am aware of my condition and am able to recognize it for what it is. Years of therapy and medication got me where I am - that, and my faith in God.



My take on the whole 'is there or isn't there a God' thing? Who am I to say that God doesn't exist? Some things are true whether we believe in them or not. Even if He doesn't exist, it's not for me to say one way or another. That's the conclusion I came to a long time ago, and it has served me well.

[dustinzgirl]

I would agree that its not for us to say for someone else if God does or does not exist, or any gods, since I think that, and based on my biblical research, that God as well as many, if not all, other gods existed, but each person has to choose their own soul's pathway, and not someone else's.

Which makes me conclude that freewill does exist, but that the one true God as the Alpha Omega ect ect knows all that has, will, and can be. I think God knows all the potential and guides the results, but the rest, especially that first choice of faith, is utterly up to us. Of course I base this on the words of other men, which may or may not be true and correct, and I ignore the words of other men who I don't agree with, as all humans do, so even my conclusion is suspect, as all human conclusions are.

Which is why I'm still fairly damn positive that in this whole big huge mathematically awesome Universe, all things exist, even those that we can't define.

I'm working on a book about it.