Does free will exist?

[mosaix]

Originally Posted by Michael01

If there is no free will, what's the point in punishing people for doing wrong?

Well the judge and jury don't have any free will either - they just have to punish people.

[Michael01]

Wow...I wasn't expecting that answer, Mosaix - even though I did walk right into it.

[HareBrain]

It's a good question. The conclusion I've reached is that even if no one is able to operate indepenently of the external influences on their conscious mind -- i.e. has no true free will -- society can only really operate if it holds people to account for their actions, to some extent. The question is, to what extent? And if it started being more lenient to lawbreakers based on the idea that they weren't truly responsible, how many others would use that as an excuse to behave differently?

[Ursa major]

Lots I imagine, given that many people already do what they like in some instances, either believing that what they do isn't a big deal and harms no-one, or believing they won't get caught**. (At the extreme, look what happens when the rules break down completely, war zones, for example.)



** - Examples range from various traffic offences (speeding, use of phones while driving, etc.) to those rioters who took to the streets last summer only because they thought the police wouldn't stop them (which in many cases was true) and further believed that once they'd left the scene, no-one would come looking for them (which in many cases has proved to be less true).

[Michael01]

I'd thought that it might be necessary for society as a whole to take responsibility. "Punishment" might be inappropriate, but something would have to be done. While the technology does not exist, we would, of course, have to continue with the old way of holding individuals responsible. But then, with the right advances, we could directly eliminate the behavior with treatment of some kind.

[Interference]

Who revived this thread, anyway - and why???

[Michael01]

Because we don't have a choice...?

[Moonbat]

If there is no free will, what's the point in punishing people for doing wrong?

Punishment restricts the wrongdoer's opportunities, as they have less chances in life they are less likely to be as succesful reproductively and so, eventually, the society can breed out the bad people.

That was not a serious answer that I believe in, but my argumentative nature made me type it.

[Michael01]

Originally Posted by Moonbat

Punishment restricts the wrongdoer's opportunities, as they have less chances in life they are less likely to be as succesful reproductively and so, eventually, the society can breed out the bad people.

That was not a serious answer that I believe in, but my argumentative nature made me type it.

Well, I suppose we'd have to eliminate conjugal visits, then. Otherwise, I apologize for contributing to something of a derail here. It really was a choice I made. I don't think it was written in my genes.

Despite my devil's advocate questions, I actually do believe in free will. Unfortunately, I will have to take a bow and admit that I cannot argue it convincingly.

[Huttman]

Originally Posted by Michael01

If there is no free will, what's the point in punishing people for doing wrong?

Some would say doing bad is its own punishment. Sure, it seems some people exposed for corruptness led lives of disgusting opulence based on stealing from others, but that is always short lived. Personally, I think we punish ourselves or reward ourselves, based on our perspectives. I believe in a greater reward fulfillment, too.

Originally Posted by Michael01

Without the ability to freely make decisions, then any "wrong" a person does is...what, biological? genetic? misfiring synapses? Fix the brain or the genes, or eliminate those that can't be fixed would be the proper solutions, then, right? No sense locking people up, otherwise.

I think it is a combination of these things plus others like what we are exposed to (especially early on). Habits are formed over time and as we become accustomed to certain things, our brain makes connections to solidify that habit, whatever it may be, a way of thinking, smoking or eating habits. We can change how our brain is wired, we just need to be disciplined about it because it is not easy, especially the older we get.
It is a shame America is so jail crazy. It does not work. We need to educate people better from the start and rehabilitate those that are in jail now and have a better system to not encourage disobedience in the first place. Easy, right?

Originally Posted by Michael01

I don't know. I'm inclined to think that free will exists and that people are responsible for the decisions they make. If anyone has an argument for why people are still responsible without free will, I will be interested to read it.

No arguments here, Number One. I'm inclined to think the same way.

[RJM Corbet]

Originally Posted by Interference

God isn't actually a person, you know ... When Bible scholars talk of God being Love ...

I think cosmic 'love' is the glue that binds existence in the sense that all things are one. As above, so below.

We have free will to do whatever we chose, within the limits of our ability, I can bark like a dog but not wag the tail I don't have. However, whatever we do, eventually, the individual 'spark' of light within us is a part of the 'whole' light of God, whatever name one uses, and the true purpose of life reveals itself as making closer contact with the 'light'.

It means darkness is just a lack of light, not the opposite ...

[Interference]

aAll the hippiesque terminology has become cliched through repetition, but in that language, Love is Harmony and balance (All You Need Is Love states it quite unequivocally) while fear is its reverse (bad vibes, literally, disharmonious cacophony). This, to me, is a neat summary of the Universe we exist within, though. As you so rightly, in my view, observe, "as above, so below" relates us directly to the potential harmony of the entire Universe, allowing us to achieve Unity within and without.

Attaining that is a matter for us and how we choose to exercise our free will. Some do it through drugs, some through religion, some join cliques, others join sects, the rest don't bother to give it a second thought.

"There's nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be" doesn't say "you had no choice but to do the things you did that led you here" but rather, "your choices are leading you to what you will become as part of the Cosmic Quilt you form a stitch on"

What we need here is a bespoke Hippy Thread

[RJM Corbet]

Originally Posted by Interference

... What we need here is a bespoke Hippy Thread

I think a lot of that came from the acid experience originally.

The truth can't really be expressed in words, whatever truth is, to misquote Pontius Pilate. It's written in a language of symbols, the kaballah etc, like mathematics for the initiate to comprehend and unravel.

But in this free will thread, you're free to stick your hand in a fire, then unlikely to repeat the mistake. Free will allows murder, but the law does not.

Cosmic law, unlike natural law, will always catch you out in the end, because there's no time beyond this natural dimension. So whatever you do, it will lead you to 'truth' eventually. Something like that ...

[HareBrain]

That is not dead which can eternal lie ... bwahaha

I thought this article in today's Observer might be of interest.

[Huttman]

Yet with strange aeons even death may die...

I like this quote form the article - As much as we like to think about the body and mind living separate existences, the mental is not separable from the physical. - David Eagleman

Or 'soul', for that matter.