Does free will exist?

[dustinzgirl]

I believe that someone will give me a nice used RV with a 440 in it and all working appliances and a bathroom and sleeps 4.

[Interference]

They don't do those in the 440 range, what else can we tempt you with?

[Ursa major]

Originally Posted by HareBrain

Ursa, glad you posted as I meant to tackle this idea of yours earlier and forgot. I don't understand how the subconscous mind could be capable of exercising free will, even if free will did widely exist. Maybe we mean different things by it -- could you give an example where you think your subconscious does exercise free will?

No, for the simple reason I don't know where my subconscious mind takes over from my conscious mind (and vice versa). What I mean by this is that I'm not sure there is the equivalent of a border (or, say, something akin to the distinction between a software application and an underlying operating system).





Let's return to my mention of the subconscious supply of puns. There is not a simple difference between unbidden and engineered puns, in the sense that the former are not always simple and the latter are not often complex. It seems to me that the neural mechanisms required to generate word-play are so similar that either they are:

1. always in the subconscious mind, but are capable of being invoked by the conscious mind;
2. duplicated (and thus entirely separate, which begs the question of just how much dictionary/thesaurus/etc information I'm carrying two copies of);
3. not innate to either the conscious or subconscious mind but existing simultaneously in both.

(By the way, I think my pun-making has been learnt. I did not tell jokes at school and I certainly did not engage in word play. Obscure "facts" were my thing, which has come in handy in pub quizzes.)

Here inside my head, I don't feel that my conscious mind is invoking some low-level pun routines. When I'm struggling to find a pun, I can feel myself going through all the steps. That seems to rule out explanation 1.

Explanation 2 sounds highly unlikely. How would the information be kept at all in step? Why doesn't my unconscious** mind beat my conscious mind to the punch? (And I know - or feel I know - that it doesn't: when I've struggled to find some word-play, and posted it, and then edited out (most of) the typos, up pops an extra play on words.)

Explanation 3 sounds the most likely to me: the pun-making is orthogonal to the "boundary" between the conscious and unconsconscious minds. It functions in either a step-by-step way or can drive itself. The reason the unbidden pun can arrive much later than the engineeredone could be that my conscious mind has taken over the required neural pathways, not allowing the subconscious mind to use them.

Given this, the difference between conscious and unconscious decision making may simply be one of how the conscious mind sees it it at that moment; the routines may be the same.



** - I'm aware that I'm using subconscious and unconscious interchangeably; there's for a very good reason for this: ignorance.

[Parson]

Ursa, this makes a great deal of sense to me. I know that I've often had it that I knew that there was something that was not quite right with my Sunday sermon on Saturday night. But when I awoke (often immediately or sometimes in the shower) the right idea that I had been struggling to get out for hours on Saturday "pops into my head." I feel as though my subconscious has processed it overnight and by the grace of God has come peculating to the top in time for me to make a necessary adjustment.

[HareBrain]

Ursa, I see the point you're making (I hope) but I don't think subconscous decision-making can be classed as an exercise in free will, because there is no "will", in the sense of "The mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action". But I appreciate there are other, less strict definitions of "will".

The exercise of will (whether truly free or only apparently free) would not be in the generation of the puns but the decision what to do with them.

[Devil's Advocate]

Where there is a sub-conscious decision, there is a way...

[Ursa major]

Originally Posted by HareBrain

Ursa, I see the point you're making (I hope) but I don't think subconscous decision-making can be classed as an exercise in free will, because there is no "will", in the sense of "The mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action". But I appreciate there are other, less strict definitions of "will".

The exercise of will (whether truly free or only apparently free) would not be in the generation of the puns but the decision what to do with them.

I can see what you mean, but I would argue that "will" - or the ability to determine and express it - is another of those functions and processes which cannot be pinned down as being on one side or another of a mental border.

Think of a committee. For some reason or other - lack of expertise, or the desire to avoid getting bogged down in detail or (worse) heated arguments, or worry that proper consideration would likely eat into time better spent on the golf course or in a bar - sets up a sub-committee to come up with a proposal or do some fact-finding. The sub-committee comes up with a report and the committee takes some or other decision based on this. It may be (all other things being equal) that all the committee does is rubber-stamp whatever the sub-committee has done. (It may even have dlegated responsibility for the decision when it set up the sub-committee). The mani committee then publishes the decision, not bothering to mention the sub-committee's deliberations.

I get the impression that this is (at least sometimes) what our conscious mind does.

It also seems to me that the conscious mind is a bit like the Board of a large company; its members tell us (and act as if they believe it) that they are the source of all the wealth created by the company. They are deceiving us (and, maybe, themselves).

[Chinook]

Originally Posted by HareBrain

The fact that legal systems hold others morally accountable for their actions doesn't necessarily imply the existence of free will, only (as you pretty much say yourself) a belief in it.

You're leaving out everything else I said. What I am using is "agreement reality" logic, where, if a sufficiently large proportion of the population believes that some concept (like free will) is defined by certain parameters, that makes it more or less true for that population. It is an agreed upon reality. It is also "shored up" in the fact that it is so widely accepted, that it is incorporated within our legal systems. I believe that is a pretty strong argument, but then like Paul Simon said, "A man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest." (which is another side effect of free will.)

[Interference]

Leave i', Chin, 'e's no' worff i'.

[The Ace]

Dunno, I'll have to ask Mum.

[Interference]

LOL


Ok, to make up the seven characters, I'll just say this one more time and then leave, much to the relief of everyone here:

Whether "free will" does or does not exist, not one of us would behave any differently, each of us being driven by our personalities and desires for acceptance in equal proportion, therefore the question becomes irrelevant in the extreme and the debate, ultimately, unprofitable.

There. A little over seven characters do you? (I used to sell cheese)

(pigeons ... meet the cat)

[dustinzgirl]

Originally Posted by Interference

They don't do those in the 440 range, what else can we tempt you with?

Well hubby wants the engine to put into the plymouth.

I want an RV to chill in for the summer.

But I don't want to spend money on it.

So.............give me both!

But if fate determines our actions and reactions and the larger world around us, then why do we have the ability to think and make decisions? Perhaps fate is only involved with the major things, the epic determinants of the whole planet, like the invention of fire and nuclear war.

[Interference]

Yep, I made that point too. What we do on this mudball doesn't matter a damn to the Universe.

*not smug, just annoying *

[Devil's Advocate]

Originally Posted by Interference

Whether "free will" does or does not exist, not one of us would behave any differently, each of us being driven by our personalities and desires for acceptance in equal proportion, therefore the question becomes irrelevant in the extreme and the debate, ultimately, unprofitable.

I concur, and would also add 'never-ending'.

leave, much to the relief of everyone here:

Ditto.

Peace.

[HareBrain]

Originally Posted by Interference

Whether "free will" does or does not exist, not one of us would behave any differently, each of us being driven by our personalities and desires for acceptance in equal proportion, therefore the question becomes irrelevant in the extreme and the debate, ultimately, unprofitable.

Inter, you've just argued against an earlier post where you reacted positively to the idea that free will might evolve as a means of creativity. How do you think free will is going to evolve, by itself? While we just sit around waiting for it to happen? OK, I'm going to risk going all whacko here, but since this thread has run its course I'll take that risk -- evolution in consciousness can only occur if we incorporate within the more recent layers all the earlier layers, and that includes understanding the extent to which our subconscious affects our ego -- and that's why thinking about the concept of free will, and asking ourselves whether we possess it, and when or if we use it, is useful. I contend.