Had it with epic fantasy

[Culhwch]

Which is why I was careful to point out that things had been, thus far, civil. As a long standing member, Urse, I'm sure you can recount many times when seemingly innocent comments, or those at least not intended to offend, have caused trouble way out of proportion to the originating cause.

The point here is that everyone is entitled to their opinion, and entitled to voice it, whether it is for Martin or against him. We won't tolerate outright Martin-bashing (in those instances where it's obvious a user is simply trolling for reaction's sake), but nor will we tolerate those who'd bash others for not sharing their own opinions.

And frankly I think enough has been said about this now, so shall we continue the civil conversation at hand?

[The Imp]

Originally Posted by Culhwch

Urse and Imp - please take note that I never said any one had been uncivil, nor did I say there had been personal attacks, so please do not feel the need to jump on the defensive so quickly. It might give us pause to think you have guilty consciences. It's my job as a moderator of these forums to head off any trouble before it starts, and that was merely what I was doing here. A gentle reminder to all members of the spirit in which we operate these forums.

Cul, I in no way feel guilty and I do not think I was being referred to, but the "line" between civil and uncvil is something I always think about when posting on this board. One of the things that makes this a special internet place for me IS the civlity and lack of fmaling, trolling, etc. I try to do as my wife taught me a long time ago (when arguing). I talk about and focus on the specifics of what someone said and I never make it about the poster him/herself. My point is, I know that if I do that I'll never break any forum rules, be they written or unwritten.

I stand by everything I've said.

[rai]

please note, I have been respectful about Mr Martin.

I liked his work. Not every bit of it, I could do without chamber pots and night soil quite so much, I would be fine without knowing every characters chamber pot and privy details.

But as someone said above, ASOIF does not need a hundred new characters. It needs to start bringing things together. If it turn into another WOT situation I would not be in favor of that. I am not sure most people would either.

I would like to enjoy his talents more in the finished series and the next one if he plans for that.

[xLORDSNOWx]

I'm going to be a realest on this one.

Once A Dance With Dragons is released, the chatter will start the day after about when will the Winds of Winter going to be coming out. By calculating the time between each book and say it continues at a 5 year interval, we're looking at 2020 as an ETA to the end of the series. I think we will all be satisfied with finished product in the end. Let's start getting antsy in about 8 years when we're waiting on the last one to finish.

On a side note: Can you imagine what our society, and where you will be 10 years from now?

[Culhwch]

If we're not driving flying cars and holidaying on the moon by the time A Dream of Spring comes out I'll be highly disappointed.

[MeriPie]

And smoking those cigarettes with massive filters, like in Fifth Element

Although I'm a little wound up by the huge delay, I can totally understand it. I can't imagine anything making writer harder (including someone with a pneumatic drill right next to your head) than having a massive fanbase expecting something wonderful and expecting it NOW. Most of the reason I'm a little tetchy about it is because I won't have time to re-read the whole set at any point before the next one comes out (bloody degree), and I've kind of forgotten what's actually happening!!

[Winters_Sorrow]

I'm ever the optimist. Once the pesky Meereenese knot is sliced into bits in Dance, I'm hopeful that the last 2 books should flow quickly in comparison.

Using Wert's post about this originally being a trilogy, the middle section is usually the trickest to get right as most people know where they're starting from and where they want to end up. I'm imagining writing this as trying to roll a boulder uphill. Tough to the summit but a piece of the proverbial on the way down to the finish line.

Like I said, optimist!

Oh and with my mod's hat on I agree with Cul about it being easy to stamp on cinders than attempt wildfire - plenty of closed threads on here to prove that point. So don't take it as an attempt at censorship but more to keep an air of conviviality even in the face of disagreement

[Clansman]

Ursa, are you referring to the Anti-Social Behaviour certificate thing? I read a hilarious book about 2 years ago, The Anti-Social Behaviour of Rumpole. Rumpole, my favourite barrister ever.

English law seems headed more and more towards less freedom.

But we digress. I did not mean to suggest above that Martin should be faster. He'll write it when he writes it. But having set out to do what he has, he must expect a little pressure from fans waiting, waiting and waiting for the next book. Five years is a long go between books, but it appears that is how long it takes him to write. The first releases were fast because he spent half a decade writing before they were released.

So five years for GRRM. He seems sort of on target.

[the smiling weirwood]

Originally Posted by rai

It's like I said in the other thread, this series is starting to lose focus big time. In fact AFFC was too much about, little kids, overweight timid guys, un-attractive women knights, epileptic 8 year olds etc..

It's not as though GRRM is not talented, but he really should self-edit. these two books AFFC and ADWD should have been one book (IMO) like his first instinct was.

IMHO he should be done with the whole story already and onto a prequel with young Ned and young Jamie and young Robert and all that, those are the real men I would like to read about not snot nose young lords (Tommin, Joff, little lord Robert and company) and girls just about 'to flower' as Martin would say.

Oh noes, there's a lack of big virile men swinging swords around and yelling "THIS IS SPARTA!" the book must suck!

Now that I've been a sarcastic jerk, allow me to dissect your post.

You not liking the characters means absolutely nothing. It doesn't mean they aren't very well-written characters whose points of view provide valuable plot information down the road. You can't know it has lost focus or fails to serve the story until the entire plot arc is finished.

I have seen similar complaints so many times...people don't like that there isn't as much "action" and war and battle and fighting scenes in AFFC and completely ignore everything else happening in the book, because they don't see the political and social developments, they just see "lack of fighting and cage matches = boring."

Also, it's pretty damn pretentious to say what an accomplished author "should have done" without any accomplishments in the field to give you a sense of authority or competence to make such judgments.

[Ursa major]

TSW is correct on both points related to the work (as opposed to the author/reader).

1. It is very hard to argue that something is not justified before the author has a chance to prove that it is. In fact it's far worse when stuff comes out of the blue (and which only involves known characters) and there's absolutely no justification for it in the prior actions of any of the characters involved. That really would be soap opera.
2. Battles, if badly described, can be as dull as anything else.

[Teresa Edgerton]

Originally Posted by the smiling weirwood

Also, it's pretty damn pretentious to say what an accomplished author "should have done" without any accomplishments in the field to give you a sense of authority or competence to make such judgments.

Whoa, there. Readers have every right to voice their opinions, their frustrations, and their disappointments without being accused of being pretentious. (A right which, I imagine, every reader here has exercised in regard to some book by some author at some time.)

[Dornish First Sword]

Originally Posted by the smiling weirwood

You not liking the characters means absolutely nothing. It doesn't mean they aren't very well-written characters whose points of view provide valuable plot information down the road. You can't know it has lost focus or fails to serve the story until the entire plot arc is finished.

I agree often times the characters you don't like are the best written, I find all of Martins characters extremely well written, though I certainly don't "like" all of them, in fact there are some I positively hate and most fans probably feel the same though thankfully to keep things interesting its not always the same characters we dislike