Give up meat?

[Vladd67]

Lord Stern: 'People should give up eating meat to halt climate change' - Telegraph
At last the Holy Grail for this government a good excuse to tax food

[Urien]

In the last day in four separate adverts the UK government has repeatedly told me to:

1. Don't eat too much salt. Examine the amount of salt in my food. Done via a comedian.
2. Eat healthily, and use some sort of snackometer to help me replace a burger with a banana. Done through the medium of morph like models.
3. Don't smoke. A child's plea to camera.
4. Grown ups are killing the planet for their children. This was done through the medium of a CO2 fairy tale read to a petrified child.

Courtesy no doubt of MiniProp (ministry of propaganda).

Why not add food persecution to the joys of 21st century Britain.

[mygoditsraining]

Newspeak kind of loses it's impact if you have to expand it.

[Urien]

MGIR,

Assuming of course that everybody is familiar with the blueprint.

Still no meat, at least the chocolate ration will be increased. And we all love the smell of cabbage.

[Peter Graham]

I find it amazing that a supposedly intelligent man makes such fundamentally incorrect assertions about meat and farming, although given that this article appeared in the Torygraph (a penny dreadful in all but appearance), there is at least a 95% chance that he has been hopelessly misquoted.

The uncomfortable truth is that a vegetarian diet (as opposed to a vegan one) is not actually an opt-out from the meat industry, although many people seem to believe that it is. Anyone who eats eggs or any form of dairy, or who drinks fined beer or wine, or enjoys confectionery, is part of the meat industry. This is not to say that there is anything wrong with not eating meat, but it is certainly very wrong to say that vegetarianism (again, as opposed to veganism) would significantly cut down the numbers of animals in existence - or, at least, the number being killed.

Veganism does allow an opt out from the meat industry, but only on the assumption that vegans are happy to eat food which has been chemically (rather than organically) fertilised. Animal muck is a hugely important commodity - a few hundred years ago, muck heaps would even be dealt with by farmers in their wills. If you aren't mucking your crops with dung, you have to muck them with agrochemicals.

There is much to be said for a lower-meat diet and even more to be said for higher welfare meat production (and correspondingly higher prices), but there is less to be said for the removal of animal products entirely from our diet.

Regards,

Peter

[The Judge]

Cabbage and beans and sprouts and...

... don't I recall reading something about methane production and global warming?

J

[Fried Egg]

Originally Posted by Peter Graham

I find it amazing that a supposedly intelligent man makes such fundamentally incorrect assertions about meat and farming, although given that this article appeared in the Torygraph (a penny dreadful in all but appearance), there is at least a 95% chance that he has been hopelessly misquoted.

Oh, it's hardly confined to the right wing of the media. Here's a left wing citation for you (The Guardian): Vegetarian diet is better for the planet, says Lord Stern.

Not that I put any store in what the "supposedly intelligent" Lord Stern has to say after his nonsense conclusions about the economic impact of global warming.

[pyan]

Originally Posted by Peter Graham

Anyone who eats eggs or any form of dairy, or who drinks fined beer or wine, or enjoys confectionery, is part of the meat industry.

True, Peter, and it goes even further - a friend of mine who's a strictish vegetarian was horrified to find that the antibiotics she was prescribed and had been taking were in a gelatine capsule.

And you'd be amazed where else gelatine crops up; many yogurts, for a start, even those sold as "healthy options".


By the way, if anyone's a vegetarian and enjoys a drink, this is a useful site:

Veggie Wines - UK Information on wines, beers & spirits suitable for vegetarians and vegans.

[Ursa major]

Originally Posted by Urien

4. Grown ups are killing the planet for their children.

I knew we had a reason for doing it....




* Wonders how much carbon is being pumped into the air in the building of such vital things as Olympic stadia. *

[JDP]

Originally Posted by Peter Graham

but it is certainly very wrong to say that vegetarianism (again, as opposed to veganism) would significantly cut down the numbers of animals in existence - or, at least, the number being killed.

I would disagree with this. The Red Meat Industry Forum estimate that 50% of the cattle used for beef production in GB consists of progeny from the national dairy herd. The other 50% are from suckler herds, bred purely for beef production. Similarly, according to DEFRA statistics for UK poultry production for 2008, 827.28 million chicks were raised as broilers, 31.08 million as layers. Not sure about stats for sheep, but I suspect they'd follow this theme.

Needless to say, the nation's job centres would be replete with pigs in a veggie uk...

At the end of the day, people are going to eat whatever they want to eat, be it wobbly curdled soy or beige turkey twizzlers; to each his own, I say (though I agree wholeheartedly about the need for higher welfare standards in meat production).

I doubt (even if the assertion that vegetarianism could halt climate change were entirely true) that people would significantly change their lifestyle, any more than they consume less petrol, throw away fewer aerosols or renounce throwaway consumerism.

[Tillane]

Originally Posted by Peter Graham

I find it amazing that a supposedly intelligent man makes such fundamentally incorrect assertions about meat and farming, although given that this article appeared in the Torygraph (a penny dreadful in all but appearance), there is at least a 95% chance that he has been hopelessly misquoted.

Sadly not. I heard Stern interviewed on the Today programme this morning, and he essentially reiterated the assertions made in the Torygraph and Grauniad articles. He did say that he thought the headlines were "unfortunate", but it didn't really sound like they were unrepresentative of his argument.

Frankly, and without wanting to start up another debate, I think that there are better reasons to be a vegetarian than this. And in terms of the environment, he might do better to look at the number of humans in existence than worry about the number of animals. Let's face it; we do have rather more impact on the environment...

[Allegra]

Originally Posted by Tillane

Frankly, and without wanting to start up another debate, I think that there are better reasons to be a vegetarian than this. And in terms of the environment, he might do better to look at the number of humans in existence than worry about the number of animals. Let's face it; we do have rather more impact on the environment...

Exactly what I thought. Great minds...

[Peter Graham]

Hi JDP,

I think it's important to look beyond the stats. Without context, the stats are pretty meaningless.

I would disagree with this. The Red Meat Industry Forum estimate that 50% of the cattle used for beef production in GB consists of progeny from the national dairy herd.

I think that estimate must be wrong, as it doesn't take account of what ultimately happens to the milkers. The real figure must be nearer 100%. Although a handful of the male calves will be held back for stud duties, the vast majority just go for slaughter. There's 50% straight away. In addition, most (if not virtually all) of the heifers go the same way once their useful milking days are over - or earlier if herds are up to capacity and no-one else wants to buy the calves. There aren't many old milkers enjoying a well-deserved retirement in a sunny field somewhere. Eating dairy ensures that nearly all of the male dairy calves are slaughtered in pretty short order and also ensures that nearly all of the heifers will eventually go the same way.

The other 50% are from suckler herds, bred purely for beef production.

A number of breeds are dual purpose, so it isn't always a straight split between milkers and beef cattle. I accept that the national herd would shrink if there was no beef cattle and we were all just eating the dairy herd, but in terms of the overall numbers of farm animals nationally, I don't think it would make that much difference.

Similarly, according to DEFRA statistics for UK poultry production for 2008, 827.28 million chicks were raised as broilers, 31.08 million as layers. Not sure about stats for sheep, but I suspect they'd follow this theme.

Chicken muck is the fertiliser par excellence. But given that the vast majority of broilers are confined to huge sheds for the entirety of their very short lives, I'd say the bald statistics are misleading. You aren't comparing like with like.

A broiler lives a few weeks. A layer can feasibly live (and lay) for up to four or five years, but most commercial breeders "clear" their stock annually, as layers have an annoying habit of laying fewer (albeit larger) eggs in their second and subsequent years. So if we are looking at carbon emissions, it's difficult to see how any number of short-lived broilers are really making that much difference. Hen for hen, they are certainly producing less carbon (and less valuable muck) than their laying sisters.

Needless to say, the nation's job centres would be replete with pigs in a veggie uk...

I agree. Unless you want an organic rotivator, a pig is little use for anything apart from meat!

I doubt (even if the assertion that vegetarianism could halt climate change were entirely true) that people would significantly change their lifestyle, any more than they consume less petrol, throw away fewer aerosols or renounce throwaway consumerism.

I agree. But my concern is that this article allows people to blame someone else for the problem and continue to take no responsibility for their own carbon footprint. Last time I checked, it wasn't the pigs who had developed the industrialised world and I'm pretty sure that the cows had nothing to do with air travel and the all-pervading internal combustion engine.

Regards,

Peter

[Urien]

"Give up Meat... we've got you surrounded. Nobody needs to die today."


.... sorry, I'll get me coat.


Oh carbon emissions and all that, this is an argument for cannibalism.

[thesoothsayer]

Originally Posted by Urien

Oh carbon emissions and all that, this is an argument for cannibalism.

The Martians grokked rightly, then?