Avatar (2009)

[Dave]

I finally got to see this today. Apologies for a very long post, but this is a very long thread to read through too.

Originally Posted by ravenus

I'm hoping it will not be like the underwhelming eyestrain 3D that was Monsters v/s Aliens.

Originally Posted by Tillane

As someone who has poor eyesight and poor depth perception, this basically means that I'm stuffed if I want to go and see certain films.

I have good eyesight, but my eyes still feel tired now. 3 hours is a long time to be messing with your eyes like that. I'd say that Sky 3D TV totally wasted their money on their advert before the film.

Originally Posted by littlemissattitude

He also managed to get motion-sickness from the 3-D combined with all the action in the film.

I didn't find it that bad, but I wouldn't recommend it if you have a fear of heights.

Originally Posted by Moonbat

I was all prepared to take my girl friend to the Waterloo Imax (something like the largest loudest cinema sound system in europe) to see Avatar next week but they are all booked up, might have to see it elsewhere, but still in 3D

They've been booked up since before Christmas, but they were also showing it at silly times. You would think that with something actually half-decent to show they would put it on every night at peak times. I saw it at a local Odeon, but there is also an IMAX in Greenwich for your future reference.

Originally Posted by ScottSF

It's the best thing I've seen since LOTR.

Originally Posted by Blackrook

The premise of the movie is there are 10' tall blue elves.

When I first saw them and the whole look of the film, I thought "they are going to have to remake Lord of the Rings again!"

Firstly, I find it absolutely astounding the number of people that it is claimed that James Cameron has managed to rip-off this story from:

Originally Posted by clovis-man

While you wait for the film premiere, you could do worse than to read "Call Me Joe" by Poul Anderson, a short story from 50 years ago which explores the same theme.

Originally Posted by CBellenis

...it seems to be based pretty firmly on Ursula Le Guin's The word for World is Forest.

Originally Posted by KESpires

I thought the plot was slightly ripped from The Sky People by S. M. Stirling. There are just too many similarities. Then again, it isn't like the Going Native plot and the revamping of the European/Native American type story is new.

Originally Posted by clovis-man

...the plot unfolded as part Fort Apache, part Dances With Wolves

Originally Posted by ctg

I was thinking parallels of Borough's Tarzan or Mars saga's.

Originally Posted by Ian Whates

Yes, there were Roger Dean's sky-floating islands, Anne McCaffreyian one-on-one bonding between dragons/banshees and people, elements of ERB's Barsoom books and Andre Norton's Janus books, not to mention Alan Dean Foster's Mid-World, and all sorts of other referents, but so what?

There was even someone else in the news claiming that He wrote this story, but I can't find a reference now.

Originally Posted by Anthony G Williams

Cameron did say something to the effect that Avatar was based on all the science fiction he'd ever read...

I also read that in an interview too, so he doesn't deny helping himself to others ideas, but I personally thought it was mostly ripped-off Dune: Paul Atreides goes native with the Fremen, learns how to survive the harsh environment, rides a Sandworm, becomes their leader, and takes them to victory against technologically superior forces.

Originally Posted by biodroid

All directors borrow extensively from some other source and claim it their own I'm sure.

Of course they do. The beauty is how you assemble all the parts together in an original new way, and Avatar does that.

Maybe everyone just sees in the film what they want to see?

Originally Posted by Ursa major

I've seen the film described as Dances with Smurfs.

Well, that's certainly another point of view.

Originally Posted by tangaloomababe

..the plot was pretty average, probably your boy meets girl etc storyline just set in some futuristic world.

Like Mowgli at the end of Disney's The Jungle Book, maybe?

Originally Posted by dustinzgirl

Actually, its very based on Hinduism...

I'm not sure if dustinzgirl was talking about another film, but many religions incorporate the idea of Gaia, or a Mother Earth Goddess. It is a firm 'eco-hippie' favourite too, but they actually referenced that in the film itself, saying that it wasn't some Pagan religion but a real phenomena. There was certainly a "Save the Earth" message in there somewhere.

Originally Posted by WizardofOwls

And it has STRONG pagan roots! I actually believe I felt the deity in the movie calling to me!!!! Is that even possible???? She is Eywah the Savage Planet!!!!!

See, I knew it!

Originally Posted by Harpo

I ...loved the nature...

SF films never get the worlds right. They always have flowering plants - mostly Coniferous Forests. Yet, flowering plants on Earth are a fairly recent evolution. Look at the money spent on Star Wars cgi aliens, but they still have battles in forests of trees that look just like Earth. The Biology of Pandora was part of the story; it needed to be different and alien, and they really managed to do that.

Originally Posted by Moonbat

...amazing, particularly the flora, the alien plants and the world did look amazing, the fauna, the animals look pretty good too. I liked the black panther/dog things, I liked the hammerhead rhinos too.

I also like the flying dinosaurs (or were they dragons?) and the parallel evolution of dog-things, horse-things and rhino-things.

Originally Posted by Tillane

Yeah, good old Unobtainium.

Originally Posted by Anthony G Williams

An old SF joke!

I thought the flying rocks were a little too much to believe.

Originally Posted by clovis-man

...the Unobtainium turned out to just be a "Macguffin".

I also wanted it explained why our dying Earth's problems could be solved by this fantastic mineral. Still, if this is going to be a trilogy, then there is plenty of time to explain that in the sequels.

Originally Posted by bobbo19

Yo dude, he could not reveal everything now could he, how else is he gonna make a trilogy?

My sentiments precisely.

Originally Posted by Parson

You also have to remember that we have the Pandoran "Gia" to be considered. Who or what is this mysterious life force. Is it truly all of nature bound together or is there some binding agent that is in control.

My guess is that the Unobtainium is responsible for everything on Pandora. There was the highest concentration of it under the old tree city.

Originally Posted by Moonbat

...why blow up the tree when there were floating mountains ...are they that lazy that they can only be bothered to forage for this...element within a radius of 20 kilometres on a forest moon light years from Earth.

Originally Posted by Thadlerian

I think it was more like the mountains floated because the Unobtainium in the ground.

I'm not so sure, the way the vines had grown around them looked to me like the force was from within them.

Originally Posted by Moonbat

...what was going on with the hair thing, how can a plait somehow include the optic fibre things that can act like brain wiring neurons?

Originally Posted by Thadlerian

Things like the moon's unspecified location and the USB man-animal connections I can easily accept as artistic freedom.

Only, all the other animals had them in special appendages, so why not the Na'vi too?

Originally Posted by bobbo19

the planet is in the Alpha Centauri A system...

Originally Posted by Moonbat

...I had read/heard that it was, but not from dialogue in the film but from stuff I saw beforehand. Maybe I missed the line when they said Alpha Centurai A.

Me also, and I think I would have remembered some trivia like that had I heard it in the film.

Originally Posted by Moonbat

I see James Cameron has upgraded his robot suit things from Aliens cool.

Has every film these mech-suits in them? They were also in District 9. They are the Soldier-Boys from Joe Haldane's Forever Peace.

Originally Posted by Moonbat

Wow! People actually feel depressed when the movie ends and they have to go back to reality. It seems 'BTL' is not too far away.

Funnily enough, that is a theme in Surrogates. It is something Neo must consider in Matrix Revolutions when freeing everyone. It has been a theme in novels, but I expect we are going to get many more films on this theme now that we have people role-playing in cyber-space for long periods of their recreational time.

Originally Posted by woodsman

I thought the film was some sort of commentary/judgement on the rape of earth through resource exploitation etc. If this was the point, I can't help but feel a dramatic ending where they failed to save the goddess would have been more shocking.

I would have been much more shocking. You would certainly have people depressed enough for suicides after that, but the problem would be no sequels after that!

Originally Posted by Themistocles

Yes, but where can they go with this?

Originally Posted by The Procrastinator

They could grow an avatar for one of the blue cat people - send it back to Earth...

I also had that idea, but why do you think the Na'vi look like cats? Elves or Smurfs maybe, but cats?

Originally Posted by J-WO

Human avatars. I'd put money on it... Not so sure about Earth though.

You might be right, Earth is apprently devastated from what Jake said. It wouldn't make such a cinematic experience.

Originally Posted by pyan

90% of the attraction of the original film is the world-setting and the visuals. Hard to see one of the Na'vi in a human avatar on Earth is going to have the same impact...

Originally Posted by Themistocles

Perhaps they revitalize Earth with life from Pandora???

I think we've just written the two sequels already!

Originally Posted by Rodders

I have a feeling that any sequels will turn out like the Matrix trilogy. A Great first part, with much weaker, less thought out follow ups that will bring down the entire story. Any sequels will be franchised.

Possibly, as that is usually the way with sequels, but it would depend entirely on who the director was. James Cameron did alright with Aliens didn't he?

And if you haven't seen this, you must go to see it, and see it in 3D. For all the dodgy lines and faults it is a great cinematic experience, and one that is on a par with the other ground-breaking films mentioned by people earlier in the thread.

[Parson]

All I can say is "Wow!" Dave what a post. Well thought out with multitudinous* insights.

*(A $64 word for a $64 post )

Got to see this in 3D!

[Wiglaf]

Is IMAX 3-D worth the extra cost over regular 3-D. Both are with polarized glasses, right? (Old red-n-green sucked) The IMAX here isn't really different from a regular screen and its the only option in the county. The one in the park downtown is a half-dome but it only shows educational films. CECUT (in Mexico) wouldn't show it either. So since the IMAX isn't a dome IMAX, what's the difference?

[Dave]

I think everyone would have a different view on whether IMAX is worth the extra, and it depends on how much extra. I can't really say as I've only ever seen one IMAX 3D film and that was an animation, though I've seen the 180° and 360° cinema films that they had in domes at amusement parks.

I may be wrong, but I though all IMAX were just big flat screens though. The main point to it all, I believe, is that you can't see the edge of the screen when watching, and so it seems more real-life. There is always going to be some suspension of disbelief though, even with the VR goggles of the kind that Moonbat mentioned in Red Dwarf or a Matrix style link-up.

[Constantine Opal]

Well I have to say, this is the first time I've read a 14 page thread on here! I don't much care if the story was a bit 'basic', it meant I could concentrate more on the stunning visuals brought so well to life with 3D. Why else do you think they made it a 3D film? Not because it enhanced the script or storyline! Can I just say, I thought Zoe Saldana was incredible in it. (In the same way Andy Serkis was incredible in LOTR obviously). I thought her character gave a very raw performance in a way some human characters never have. The horror of finding her father dying, and of Home Tree being destroyed, the 'betrayal' she felt on finding out Jake was, in effect, working under cover... this performance had me enthralled all the way through. It's a pity she probably won't even get a nod at Oscar time.

I have never been so completely embraced by a film, to the point where the cinema could have blown up around me and I wouldn't have noticed. Just immensely beautiful and rich in all the places it should have been, and a gentle introduction to the world of Pandora and it's people.

Time for more convoluted story lines later on!

[clovis-man]

As this thread (and the film) keep rolling along, I have to say that Avatar has certainly become something of a phenomenon. People I know who would never go to a science fiction movie have not only been to see this one, but have gone again. My friend in Oregon called to ask me if I'd seen it. When I replied, "Twice", he burst out laughing and said, "Me too!" Another friend, who just turned 70 this past weekend, said the same thing.

[The Procrastinator]

Originally Posted by Dave

I also had that idea, but why do you think the Na'vi look like cats? Elves or Smurfs maybe, but cats?

Dude, they totally look like humanoid cats. I'm not talking tabby here, I'm talking large feline. They move like cats, too. Check it out.

Smurfs - well they are blue. But they lack the hats.
Elves - well they are slim and graceful and they live in a forest. And they have pointy ears.
Cats! Broad flat noses, broad cheekbones, cat eyes (big cat), cat ears. Graceful cat movements. Cat tail. I dare say most artists have imagined and drawn cat people while growing up - I sure did - and they looked remarkably like the Na'vi. Recognised them instantly. Very cool. Marvellous to see them in a movie!

[Dave]

Originally Posted by The Procrastinator

Dude, they totally look like humanoid cats. I'm not talking tabby here, I'm talking large feline. They move like cats, too. Check it out.

Sorry, I never drew cat-people as a child. On more reflection, I see the ears, the broad noses and the tails, but still, to me, cats mean carnivores; long, sharp claws; large, sharp, canine teeth; pouncing not running; and fur. I think I see aliens cats like the Kzin. When I watched the film they just didn't strike me as cats, that is all, especially since there was another large cat-like-thing that attacked them. I never said I was the only opinion allowed.

[Devil's Advocate]

Originally Posted by Dave

I never said I was the only opinion allowed.

Sure you did. I heard you.

As far as the sequels go, I don't think they would have the Matrix effect. Those were different because the Wachowski's saw the success of the movie, and then decided to make sequels, arrogantly claiming that they had always envisioned it as a trilogy. What a load of horse radish!

Cameron, however, announced even before Avatar was released that he and fellow writers had enough story (or at least the outlines of one) for a trilogy, but that he was waiting to see how this was received before deciding if he would bother. If that is true, then the overall story arc should be cohesive and would turn out quite well.

Of course, that doesn't mean it will hold the same sense of wonder, since now we've already seen the gorgeous world of Pandora. But I, for one, would love for JC to make the sequels.

Oh, and the Unobtainium. What makes you guys think that mineral is what's giving the planet all these magical properties? I don't remember any suggestion to that effect in the film. Unless I'm very much mistaken (which I never am), the reason for the hunt for the mineral is simply because it's extremely rare and, therefore, extremely valuable. The ones who are after it are, after all, a corporation. And like all corporations, their actions are motivated by profit, not out of some belief that this mineral will help resolve Earth's problems.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate

Oh, and the Unobtainium. What makes you guys think that mineral is what's giving the planet all these magical properties? I don't remember any suggestion to that effect in the film. Unless I'm very much mistaken (which I never am), the reason for the hunt for the mineral is simply because it's extremely rare and, therefore, extremely valuable.

I've only seen the film once, and it was over a month ago now, but I'm sure it was a mentioned that Unobtainium was needed to save planet Earth. I don't think they said exactly how, but that was why the Military was supporting the Corporation in exploiting it. Can anyone else confirm that?

[Thadlerian]

Originally Posted by Dave

I've only seen the film once, and it was over a month ago now, but I'm sure it was a mentioned that Unobtainium was needed to save planet Earth. I don't think they said exactly how, but that was why the Military was supporting the Corporation in exploiting it. Can anyone else confirm that?

I think Jake says quite explicitly, in a voice-over, that the troopers are hired contractors, not governmental military forces.

[CBellenis]

Some post Dave!! Great synthesis. Hints at some kind of genius in Cameron to have given the film so may different resonances for different people.
Another thought - as it is just a film it contains so much - To really get the most out of LotR you had to have read the books (or have someone irritating like me sitting next to you, gabbing on 'explaining' stuff), but as it's just a film, Avatar isn't missing anything. AN argument for making films from scratch, rather than from books.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Thadlerian

I think Jake says quite explicitly, in a voice-over, that the troopers are hired contractors, not governmental military forces.

What about the other question: that the Unobtainium was required to save the Earth?

If the troopers are hired contractors, then the Corporation must hold some power back on Earth. I expect that Earth is very unlike the Earth we know today - run by powerful Corporations, ecologically damaged. If he does decide to set the sequel on Earth with the Pandorans visiting Earth, then I think there is scope for a reasonably interesting sequel there.

[clovis-man]

Originally Posted by Dave

What about the other question: that the Unobtainium was required to save the Earth?

I think I may have touched on this somewhere at the beginning of the thread, but:

IMHO, the unobtainium is nothing more than a MacGuffin, i.e., something that everybody wants and which drives the characters to do what they do. Good recent examples can be found in the movies Pulp Fiction and Ronin. It's not really important what it is. The important thing is the interaction among the characters. Even the name is a big tip-off.

But read into it whatever you like. "Suit yourself. I'm easy." (Marty Feldman: Young Frankenstein).

[Devil's Advocate]

Oh, yes, there's not doubt that it's just a MacGuffin. But even MacGuffins have some excuse for existing, even if that excuse is ultimately irrelevant to the greater story.

We were wondering what Avatar's 'excuse' was? Just the monetary value? Or because it can save the Earth?