Defend Your Favorite -- SF or Fantasy (split off from "Race to 100")

[Connavar]

Well for every David Gemmell there are a 1000 generic fantasy writers

[Culhwch]

Originally Posted by Connavar

Well for every David Gemmell there are a 1000 generic fantasy writers

And for every... wait, I can't think of a single decent SF writer to throw that statement back at you.

[Teresa Edgerton]

What I find interesting is the shift in interest from science fiction to fantasy over the last twenty years -- especially among male readers.

It makes me wonder why science fiction has been steadily losing readers ... I mean readers that it already had, not just failing to attract new ones in the same numbers that fantasy has.

Even people who say that science fiction is so much better seem to be buying and reading a lot of fantasy ...

[Connavar]

Originally Posted by Teresa Edgerton

What I find interesting is the shift in interest from science fiction to fantasy over the last twenty years -- especially among male readers.

It makes me wonder why science fiction has been steadily losing readers ... I mean readers that it already had, not just failing to attract new ones in the same numbers that fantasy has.

Even people who say that science fiction is so much better seem to be buying and reading a lot of fantasy ...

The only reason i might buy more fantasy or similar number to sf is that its so popular and easier to get in paperback. While sf you have to look for out of print more often. Even 60s great and books that are legendary.

Plus the best sf writers are from 1950s-1970s to me when i read and they didnt write as many books as fantasy authors do with their series. For every great sf book a fav fantasy writer has written 10.

Plus i dont read genre wise i read by favourite authors. If my favs wasnt writers like REH,Lord Dunsany,Vance,Gemmell,Powers,Kearney,Tanith Lee etc i wouldnt read fantasy at all.

I have 20-30 fav sf writers compared to that fantasy names and thats why i prefer sf. Not cause its space or social science or something.

[Connavar]

Yeah its a given the readers like fantasy more. The heroics will always be more fun than a good serious sf book. Its not literary fantasy greats has made fantasy more popular.

I was reading an article about Lancer pastiche Conan books in the 60s who talked about how fantasy,horror went almost underground in the 50s and sf dominated. Would be cool if it went back and forth. Its sound almost alien that sf might be bigger again.

Not that i care cuz if you went after popularity you would read Agatha Christie,Stephen King and co only.

[Teresa Edgerton]

Originally Posted by Connavar

Yeah its a given the readers like fantasy more. The heroics will always be more fun than a good serious sf book.

I don't think it's a given at all, or that readers will always be drawn to fantasy simply for the heroics.

For one thing, I can remember a time when science fiction outsold fantasy by a considerable margin. For another, science fiction, over the years, has not been devoid of heroics. And for yet another, I don't believe that the majority of readers choose fantasy merely for the heroics. I think it's that fantasy stories are more character driven in a way that a lot of SF used to be, and so much of it no longer is.

[J-Sun]

I disagree with most of this in at least a sense. There's been a wholesale denigration of science in the US over the last many years. And the US is probably not alone in this. So, not surprisingly, at least in the US, SF suffers. There are definitely also internal issues at work and external issues that are closer to home, such as the mechanics of the publishing industry, but the overarching issue is that science is not valued as it once was.

Although 27 percent of Americans said scientific advances are the nation's greatest achievement, that was down from 47 percent in the group's May 1999 survey.

That, in itself, must be radically down from the results had the survey been taken in 1900 or 1950.

Survey.

This will be fatal for us ("us" being whoever values science, technology, reason, etc.) and for SF if not corrected.

(I may try to address the internal/publishing thing later.)

[AE35Unit]

I think it could be partly down to the fact that SF is change dependant. As new technologies come about cool fantastic ideas become reality or feasible and so SF has to change. Because fantasy is not so much technology bound but only bound by the imagination it doesn't have such a hard fight to remain original. Its fantasy,anything is possible. But SF is more dependant on things actually being possible. This may render it less marketable than the cheap and quick thrills made possible by fantasy.

[Connavar]

Originally Posted by Teresa Edgerton

I don't think it's a given at all, or that readers will always be drawn to fantasy simply for the heroics.

For one thing, I can remember a time when science fiction outsold fantasy by a considerable margin. For another, science fiction, over the years, has not been devoid of heroics. And for yet another, I don't believe that the majority of readers choose fantasy merely for the heroics. I think it's that fantasy stories are more character driven in a way that a lot of SF used to be, and so much of it no longer is.

I meant the high,heroic fantasy is the most popular ones in sales. Now there is even urban,vampire. That draws in new readers much more than other types of fantasy. Not that they are the only ones fantasy readers read.

The casual readers who dont read genre usually read heroic,YA. Casual readers have prejudice against SF they dont have against fantasy. Plus fantasy has famous movies help.
SF in film arent like the books and they are never from the books. I, Robot, I Am Legend didnt make anyone read sf. While HP,Twilligt books are all over the rooms of my little sisters,brother. They will loan my heroic fantasy,S&S books but my sf is alien to them.

There are a hole different matter for us who already read SF,other genres and try fantasy because they know the rated works.

Fantasy is more popular to people who dont read the genre. Maybe the times you remember sf had the same things going for it that fantasy does today with those kind of readers.
Yeah fantasy is more character driven but i dont think that hurts sf. I think ideas wise sf are weaker today than before. Thats why there isnt a big fuss of a rated sf book outside the genre.

[Teresa Edgerton]

So, J-Sun, are you saying that this denigration of science has even had its effect on people who used to devour science fiction but now prefer fantasy?

I would have said that science fiction readers would have been the last people to be influenced in that way.

This may render it less marketable than the cheap and quick thrills made possible by fantasy.

Because science fiction has no access at all to cheap and quick thrills? All those scarcely humanoid extra-terrestrials carrying off nubile earth women, so the square-jawed heroes can swoop in and save them at the last minute -- no cheap, quick thrills there! All very cerebral.

[Culhwch]

It's always the way, isn't it? Science fiction fans just think they're so much better than us...

[TheEndIsNigh]

Teressa:

Well I can see there might be a certain attraction in scantily clad nymphs and dryads in diaphanous gauzes and silks as opposed to your hard kevlar and steel armoured death maidens toting their Splogwand blasters (Hmmmm... well for me anyway).

However, as I said in the thread earlier it's the 'son of Mifril', 'son of Quantruth' and his potion of newt breath that turns me cold - just as it's supposed to do. Not to mention the gleaming wraith nests in the far forests of Darkmingfol.

[Culhwch]

Originally Posted by TheEndIsNigh

However, as I said in the thread earlier it's the 'son of Mifril', 'son of Quantruth' and his potion of newt breath that turns me cold - just as it's supposed to do. Not to mention the gleaming wraith nests in the far forests of Darkmingfol.

But these are just stereotypes that are actually difficult to find in modern fantasy (and, probably, large swags of older fantasy). Read George Martin, read Scott Lynch, read Steven Erikson, and find me anything even resembling the above. It's like me saying I don't like science fiction because I'm put off by the metallic, skin-tight jumpsuits that everyone in the future has to wear.

[TheEndIsNigh]

Cul: What do you mean - That's what I wear to work now.

[AE35Unit]

Originally Posted by Culhwch

It's always the way, isn't it? Science fiction fans just think they're so much better than us...

Err no. I read both SF and fantasy,depending on my mood. And anyway all fiction is technically fantasy.