Version Shock

[Teresa Edgerton]

You still have to learn which words actually constitute dialogue tags and which describe actions or body language that accompany dialogue, and how the difference alters the punctuation. Also, where you do have dialogue tags, you're over-using "saidisms."

Some examples of what I mean (I'm not going to go through the whole thing and point out each one of them):

He plugged a diagnostics cable into Mark's navel, poked at his PDA, shook his head, "I'm sorry, I can't do anything here."

There should be a period instead of a comma before the part in quotation marks, because all that before the comma (that ought to be a period) is a separate sentence that has nothing to do with the dialogue.

Pete swivelled the web-cam to his pretty young assistant, a casually dressed brunette, "Henry, would you explain ?"

Again, you need a period instead of a comma before the dialogue, and for the same reason. Also, because it's a bit unclear whether Pete or the assistant is speaking.

She was a liqueur-smooth soprano,

Another comma where you should have used a period. It's a description, not a dialogue tag. You could write it:

She said in a liqueur-smooth soprano, ""I'm a Mark Fourteen."

But that, although correct, does not flow as well as what you have IF you had punctuated it correctly.

On the other hand, in this example,

"I-- I can see the familial relationship." I agreed.

there should be a comma after the dialogue, because "agreed" is a proper word for identifying dialogue.

and the same thing here

"Service Contract." I grated.

[Nik]

I've been googling for dialogue punctuation 'rights & wrongs'. Of course, one of the big hits was this thread...
How embarrassing...

Never too late to learn: At last, I'm beginning to get a 'mid-Atlantic' handle on why it all went wrong...

[MistingWolf]

Is that what the TwoE was? Another version of the Mark? That is the place I get the most confused. And my questions about it are still left unanswered. I understood that O'Brien was in a wheelchair, but then I got confused when he sent TwoE to answer the door instead of him actually doing it. Surely his home must be wheelchair accessible? This is really where I get lost. You don't need to explain it in the text, though I think some readers would appreciate it, but I would like it to be explained to me a bit. Please?

[ctg]

Originally Posted by Nik

"D'uh..." I switched to Plan B. Whatever Mark's problem, TwoE was working. I linked, unplugged the wheel-chair's charger, drove out of the hutch in the workroom, reached and pressed Mark's hardware reset. "Come on, Mark. Time to wake up."

He sat, unmoving. I pivotted the chair, peered at the diagnostics. Nothing. Nothing at all. Awake, Mark was a forgettable Everyman in baggy sweats. His Series' brown hair, brown eyes, soft smile and gentle voice formants had bridged 'Uncanny Valley'. Now, he was just an expensive mannequin.
"D'uh..."

I get a picture that Mark is a robot. So if Mark and Two-E are robot's or mechanical beings, then please use word 'it' to describe gender. But when we read further on, you should give us description that Mark is android, with some human characteristics. More clearer you make this in your narrative, better the prose becomes.

I'd been dreading this day. There was only one thing to do-- Call the Service Contract. ADD DESCRIBTION. "International Androids, Mary speaking ! How may I help you ?"

"Hi, my name's Sam O'Brien." My phone-synth grumbled, "My mark six flat-lined, it won't boot."

I would like to see a bit first person narrative in the highlighted section. Tell us just a little bit with character own words what he thinks about particular company. Also if you give us a description of the communications device then better we can imagine the conversation between these two characters.

"No problem, Mr. O'Brien ! We'll have help out to you within an hour !"

I have problem with your exclamation marks. I would have written it this way.

"No problem, Mister O'Brien," she said with a honey voice. It was probably a design parameter to soften stress, especially when she added. "We'll be there in within an hour."

An hour, Jesus! I thought when I hanged up the phone. Why is it taking that long, what am I going to do in meantime?

It had been a while since I'd answered the door as TwoE, but Joe, the smart, young repairman, was too professional to flinch at 'my' sickly appearance, too busy to look further.

"Morning, Mr. O'Brien," ADD DESCRIPTION. " Oh, that's not looking good." He plugged a diagnostics cable into Mark's navel, poked at his PDA, shook his head, "I'm sorry, I can't do anything here."

I edited it a bit. So add narrative to highlighted bit. Tell us how you see the Joe getting on with the android before he start to poke it.

"Ah..." ADD MONOLOGUE. "I'll just phone the office and schedule it. Hi ! Yes, I'm on site. Not good. Can't be sure without full strip-down, but needs a main board at least. Mark Six. Yes, a Mark Six. Yes, a genuine, original Mark Six-A. Not a Clone. Oh. Oh. Could you explain it ?" He turned his PDA to me.

"Ah.." ... Would you say ah, with the stress you got?

Well, I think that's sort of stiff upper lip type of answer. So if you're going to use, add there inner monologue.

"Ah..." I said, looking the helpless droid and its repairman with right hand on my cheek, left one tucked under elbow. Of course it was beyond help of company repairman. What an idiot I've been.

Then my ears picked Joe saying, "Yes, it's a genuine mark six-a... No, not a clone you stupid-" And I thought, next thing he's going ask me to explain it. Then it happened. Joe turned around saying, "Could you explain it to him... please?"


[/quote]ADD PERSONAL DESCRIPTION WITH A FEELING. "Hello, Mr. O'Brien ! I'm Art Morgan, UK Service Manager. I'm sorry, we have a problem. There's no replacement main boards for the Mark Six series. None. Nada. Zilch. Storm damage at the US depot. An F5 hit. We've nothing left prior to Series Eight, and that's not back-compatible."[/quote]

Now notice the way I moved the dialogue at back of the last narrative. In this, I would use a bit of anger to describe the feeling and then hearing completly different side of the conversation. Ironically, not what he was thinking.

"Service Contract," I grated.

"Yes, Mister O'Brien," he replied. "I am cognisant of our obligations. We are urgently developing plug-compatible boards. Unfortunately, the first are still several months from beta-testing. So, I'm afraid there's no help to you." Then he added. "But fear not of being out your faitful companion because there are alternatives. May I conference our Technical Department?"

Without waiting for my reply I found my self talking to totally another person within a second. "Hello, Mr O'Brien ! Pete from Technical... Look, this may sound silly, but we can emulate the Mark Six on a Fourteen."

I added there a bit of describtion to give a breather to the reader.

I puzzled, "I thought you were up to Series Twelve ?"

"Beta testing. The Mark Six was such a stable platform. Also, many people still prefer the Mark Six's limited interaction. Less distracting. Lower bandwidth."

"I like my Mark Six. The neighbours know him. He does my shopping and gardening."

"We can upload the speech formants, but... Um..." Pete swivelled the web-cam to his pretty young assistant, a casually dressed brunette, "Henry, would you explain ?"

"Hello, Mr. O'Brien !" She was a liqueur-smooth soprano, "This is a Mark Fourteen."

Why is it that you add exlamation mark after every greeting? Could you think of doing without?



If you do want to add the narrative then it will clear up the details coming in later. But you need to clear up the dialogue.

[Nik]

OT: While googlin' for dialogue punctuation, I came across a learned comment. Gotta paraphrase, as browser hung on a different window and I lost the url. Text went something like...

"... English spelling derives from so many sources that it is necessarily a zoo. There's no such explanation for dialogue punctuation, which is an illogical, inconsistent, arbitrary assemblage of prefix, infix and post-fix notation, beset by bizarre exceptions..."

ROFL !! At least my simplified approach is consistent...
---

MistingWolf, few meet Sam in person, and for very good reason. Following incident is two days into the week's trial. Text as-is, dialogue not yet updated for punctuation...

In the morning, Jaine and I pulled on those new crop-tops and skorts, worked bare-foot through a DanceFit session from a disk she'd brought. After breakfast of coffee, croisants and coffee, she changed to pink sweats, woke her lap-top and began updating her report/blog. I put on a pair of striped sox and curled along the couch, apparently watching DayTime TV. With the Fourteen parked, I got on with my work. SQL Consultancy suited my life-style. Half an hour on, five minutes off until lunch-time kept my schedule on track. Most of the job was audit trail, documentation and guiding the expert system I used for such transfers. I didn't need to code much any more...

My private phone rang.
"Mr O'Brien ? Elle Jones, District Nurse Specialist--"
"Hi, Elle !"
"I've had a cancellation, may I do you today ?"
"Sure, Elle ! I've got guests, but that's no problem."
"Fifteen, twenty minutes ?"
"Look forward to seeing you !"
I woke the Fourteen, walked through to Jaine, "Hi, there's a nurse coming to see me-me in a few minutes. It's just routine. Uh, would save her some time if I'm off-line by then. Could you answer the door ?"
"Sure, Sam ! Hey, you look good in those high sox !"
"I should do !" I grinned, "You chose them !"
We shared the laugh. I toed into trainers, shut the velcro, crashed on the couch. With the Fourteen safely parked, I went through the slow process of powering-down and isolating my VR links. Now, I was reduced to the CCTV and security systems. I watched a car turn onto our drive-way, halt behind Jaine's. A nurse climbed out, grabbed her big bag and approached the door.

"Good morning ! I'm Nurse-Specialist--"
"Hi ! Come in ! Sam's expecting you !"
"I'm Elle--"
"Jaine." She smiled, pointed through to the lounge, "My sleepy-head cousin, also Sam. We're covering for Mark, she pulled the night shift."
"Ah... Okay, well, I've a lot to do."
"Coffee after ?"
"Oh, please !"
Elle unpacked and donned a disposable overall, over-shoes, mask and double gloves. She tapped her access code into the air-lock, waited for the air-shower to cycle. While that howled, I used the intercom, "Jaine, I've digital avatars, but they're going off-line, too. Please don't be upset when you see the real me."
"Uh... I can't stand hospital stuff-- My Aunt-- Cancer--"
"Then turn off the wall-screen."
"Can't I just--"
"Security default."
"Understood." She reached and pressed the power switch as Elle entered my room.

"Hi, Sam !"
"Hi, Elle !" I husked.
"How are you ?"
"A bit stronger." I whispered as she undocked my VR helmet, "Muscle mass is up a clear point this quarter, five up from the baseline."
"And you said that in only three breaths ! I remember when you needed a breath per word !"
"Gene therapy's working."
"Slowly but surely, Sam... Hey, they're nice young ladies !"
"Uh-huh..." I ghosted a nod, "Mark flat-lined, they're doing this week's shopping and stuff while he's off-site. Good company."
"Okay, let's get busy." She ran the hoist. The padded basket scooped me from the gel tub, "Ooh, you've put on almost a kilo ! That's good !"
I was barely more than skin and bone. Now a fish out of water, I lay like an unwrapped Egyptian Mummy while Elle inspected and sometimes changed my catheters and other connectors.
"Let's check for Thrush: No, no, no, no and no. That's good. Can you feel this ? Here and here ? Here ? Excellent. You are doing well, Sam."
"Thanks, Elle."
She put my life-support back together, lowered me into the tank and replaced my VR helmet, "Check this."

I was ahead of her, "Reboot complete. Security functions okay. House functions okay. Digital avatars okay. TwoE link okay. Second link okay."
"Huh ? You have a second bot here ?"
"Mark may be too damaged, Elle. I've been offered an upgrade, but it's NDA."
"Ah. So those two young ladies may be Bot-sitting, too ?"
"Something like that."
"Sam, I'd swear that was a wicked chuckle !"
"Ha ! I may be a potted geek, but I'm not dead from the neck down !"
"That's the spirit !" Elle laughed, as she bagged discards and took culture samples, "By the way, your metabolic summary is out of the Grey into Brown for the first time in years. Began a few days ago..."
"Ah..." That made for an interesting correlation, "Hmm..."
Elle laughed again, "I'd better not ask ! Well, I'm looking forwards to coffee !"
"The usual ?"
"Oh, please !"

By the time Elle had cycled through, bagged and scrubbed, I'd woken the Fourteen and set a coffee tray for three.
"Ooh, thank you !" Elle sniffed appreciatively as I poured, "How are you getting on with Mr O'Brien ?"
"Very well." Jaine stated, "He's one of the heroes of our field, it's an honour to work with him."
"So, you have his new Bot tucked away ?"
"Uh-huh." Jaine grinned, "A week's trial. Um, even after one day, I can say we've learned a lot."
"Certainly." I agreed, topping up Elle's coffee.
"Perfect !" She sipped, "You two could be twins..."
"Cousins." Jaine stated, "I'm the Cyberneticist, Sam's more of a data-base wrangler."
"Oh ? Isn't that Mr O'Brien's specialty, too ?"
"Oh, yes !" I smiled ingenuously, "That may be why I was assigned !"
Elle ran her gaze across 'my' slightly-clad body, grinned, "I'm sure that wasn't the only reason, Dear ! He may be a 'Potted Geek', a genuine 'Nerd in Aspic', but he isn't dead from the neck down !"

Jaine blushed, threw me an 'old fashioned' look.
"You'll know you're accepted when TwoE, his wheel-chair Bot, kisses your hand."
"Ah..."
"And us District Nurses used to come here for our Halloween Party. Dress code was--"
"Naughty Nurses ?" Jaine guessed.
"Close ! 'Doctors and Nurses', officially, but hem-lines were scandalous ! Well, we'd do TwoE as Hawkins or Davros. Mark was a shoo-in for Dr Furter-- Franken Furter. TwoE stayed outside, guarding our cars and chatter-botting Halloweeners--"
"He could run both at the same time ?" Jaine gasped.
"Hey, TwoE didn't need much bandwidth. Sam would put Mark on a loop, load up TwoE's speech synthesizer and leave him yacking."
"That's still hopping some..."
"Sam was an 'Early Uptaker'. He was so young, so strong, he had just enough function after that neuro-virus to boss TwoE. Others who tried full VR recovered, gave up or died. Sam hung on. Now there's no-one else with even half his years in full VR. His motor control skills are phenomenal. Have you seen TwoE driving the wheelchair ? I've seen Mark thread a needle, stitch buttons."
"Ach..." Jaine looked confused, "I thought the joy-stick was fake ! But-- That shouldn't be possible ! Neither Series Two nor Six were designed for such dexterity..."
"Sam's managed it."

[Nik]

Sorry, ctg, our posts crossed. Thanks for comments and examples, much to digest.

[MistingWolf]

Ah, okay, Now I think I grasp things a bit more. Thank you :}

[HareBrain]

Originally Posted by Nik

OT: While googlin' for dialogue punctuation, I came across a learned comment. Gotta paraphrase, as browser hung on a different window and I lost the url. Text went something like...

"... English spelling derives from so many sources that it is necessarily a zoo. There's no such explanation for dialogue punctuation, which is an illogical, inconsistent, arbitrary assemblage of prefix, infix and post-fix notation, beset by bizarre exceptions..."

Sorry, but I think that's nonsense. The easiest way to learn to punctuate dialogue (as has been pointed out many times in other threads) is to leave out the quote marks. Eg:

A bit stronger, I whispered.

is obviously one sentence, so to write:

A bit stronger. I whispered.

makes no sense.

Similarly, should the following really be a single sentence?

I woke the Fourteen, walked through to Jaine, Hi, there's a nurse coming to see me-me in a few minutes.

Without the quote marks it's clearly wrong. There has to be a full stop after "Jaine", no?

On the subject of "d'uh ..." you might pronounce the "d", but I think you should be aware that to most people it would sound like "durr ...", the noise made to incidate mental feebleness. Or maybe that's just my demographic.

[Nik]

HareBrain, Teresa etc, I will NOT nay-say folk who can navigate such paradoxical arcana.

Dialogue is very hard for me: I'm not an aural/vocal person, must grow each tale from Hard-SF exposition to 'people'. As part of my work, I wrote hyper-complex technical procedures in an manner that did not make users glaze-over. Any fool could grind out 'what' for rote-learning. My modest forte was to maintain orthogonality, and subtly include just enough 'why' to prompt an eventual 'Aha!', accelerate learning, allow intuitive handling of improbable contingencies...

I'll merely flag some apparent illogic, then continue to try to unlearn too many decades of erroneous punctuation...
---

A bit stronger. I whispered.

I woke the Fourteen, walked through to Jaine, Hi, there's a nurse coming to see me-me in a few minutes.

"A bit stronger." and "Hi~~minutes." are self-contained sentences from capital to period, yes ??

"A bit stronger," really, really doesn't make sense in context, as there is no speech continuation. Of course, "A bit stronger !" <glee>, "A bit stronger ?" <hoping> and "A bit stronger..." <feebly> are allowed, while my "A bit stronger." <statement> isn't !!

By the same cruel logic, the other example should be written...
... through to Jaine, "hi, there's a nurse..."

Of course, if written...
... walked through to Jaine.
<scene break>
"Hi, there's a nurse..."

It is allowed !!
---

Funny-peculiar language, the 'English'...

[HareBrain]

I suppose maybe it is more funny-peculiar than I'd given it credit for. I can see that your method has a logic of its own, and I'm not sure I have the skill to explain why you should (for the sake of readers) abandon that logic in favour of the one that all non-experimental published fiction uses, but I'll try.

A bit stronger. I whispered.

"A bit stronger" can indeed be a self-contained sentence, but the point is, in this context, "I whispered" is not. It's a speech tag, designed to tell us who is speaking (and in this case in what manner), and because it's a tag, it must be added to something rather than stand on its own. Speech tags can be either side of the dialogue, so you could have

I whispered, "A bit stronger."

However

I woke the Fourteen, walked through to Jaine,

is not a speech tag (it doesn't tell us anything about the speech), and so it cannot be joined to the speech by a comma. It must be separated by making it a separate sentence.

You raise the point about dialogue ending in !, ?, and ... I suppose this is one of those peculiarities, but in speech, these act as commas rather than full-stops (or at least, they do if there is a following speech tag).

Is this making any sense? Sorry to go OT, but I shall keep trying to explain if it's at all useful.

[The Judge]

Nik, I know you've said you're not an aural/vocal person, but have you tried reading the sentences out loud? Or getting someone else to read them over to you? This might help (... or might not...)

'A bit stronger,' I whispered. This is correct. When you read it the attribution runs straight on - the comma just giving a small pause between what is said and who is saying it.

'A bit stronger.' I whispered. This is not correct. When you read it the full stop brings you to a long pause. The attribution of I whispered is then left hanging in the air, uselessly.

Using exclamation or question marks usually would signify a pause quite as long as a full stop but in fact when you read them you only give a shorter, comma-length pause if what follows is the attribution. So the two following sentences are punctuated the same way but you read them differently:

'A bit stronger!' I shouted.
'A bit stronger!' I knelt down and gasped for breath.

Can you hear the difference when you read them out loud?

The same applies to the other sentence. If what precedes the speech is an attribution you would run it straight on, so:

I... walked through to Jaine and said, 'Hi, there's a nurse coming.' This is correct - though in place of the comma you could put a colon. Either way the pause you make in reading it is relatively short.

I... walked through to Jaine, 'Hi, there's a nurse coming.' This is wrong. The I...Jaine is a complete thought and needs to be completed by a long pause - the comma isn't up to the job, so it needs a full stop. So this should be: I... walked through to Jaine. 'Hi, there's a nurse coming.'

I see that you disapprove of learning things by rote, but frankly there is a time and place for knowing what is right and what is wrong, even if the reason for it escapes you. This might be one of those times!

J

[Teresa Edgerton]

Here is the point: You are punctuating your dialogue the wrong way. You are punctuating things that do not immediately relate to the dialogue as if they do. NO amount of discussion is going to change that. You can google websites, you can read articles, but it will remain the same. And you could learn just as much by reading your favorite works of fiction and paying attention to how these things are done. A pattern would emerge. The logic would become clear to you.

It is, of course, your own piece of writing, so if you want to do things in your own eccentric fashion, obviously you can. Just because you've asked for a critique doesn't mean that you have to take any of the advice; you can ignore all of it, if you like. But please ignore us silently. Do not argue with us by telling us that the system we are trying to explain to you is illogical and arbitrary. That derails the critiques process, and frankly, it is not very polite. If you want to start a thread about punctuating dialogue, and post it in the proper place (that would be under the general heading of Aspiring Writers), do so. Such a thread might be beneficial to many.

If this thread continues off topic, it will be closed.

[Nik]

Apologies to all.

Hopefully, the next excerpt I post will have exemplary dialogue punctuation...

Thanks for your patience.
---

FWIW, I've just been browsing some century-old gothic/horror fiction tales. Serendipitously, I noticed that their punctuation includes the format...

"Blah blah," non-capital whatever, "non-capital blah blah."

“It is very short,” said Mary, “and it is certainly beautiful; but I don't understand some parts of it, and I don't think I like some other parts.”

Fascinating, but extinct...

[Teresa Edgerton]

No, that's still in use, and entirely acceptable. You can put your dialogue tags at the beginning, the middle, or the end, just so long as you punctuate them properly.

But since you've brought up older works and older writing styles before:

If your story were set in an earlier time; if your writing reflected an 18th or 19th century sensibility (which of course it does not); if the language of the narrative and the dialogue were those of a previous era; there might be some logic to using The Castle of Otranto or Mysteries of Udolpho as your style guides.

But with anything in the nature of the excerpts you've posted above, any elements of an earlier style clash with the whole in a way that I, personally, find distracting. I think -- in fact I'm convinced -- that it would be the same for the vast majority of other readers.