Oracles

[dwndrgn]

Scifimoth mentioned Galadriel from LOTR and it got me thinking about oracles and visionaries used in the fantasy genre.

I've always thought their use in these stories were just a little over the top. I know that there is a long history of oracles, soothsayers, visionaries etc. in our own past and have always wondered about them. Unfortunately information about them is sketchy at best. Even Nostradamus' famed 'visions' are just like poetry - they can be interpreted to fit almost any situation.

It just seems odd to me that some deity would allow any human a vision of the future - even couched in a riddle or obscure languages. I think that they are used most often in stories to fix some plot development.

Any thoughts?

[GnomeoftheWest]

They are sometimes use for exposition. To bring together threads that may have been forgotten by the reader.....Also to make a huge jump in the plot that can't be supplied by another character. So I guess you are somewhat correct in your "fix" position.
I see them as just fun and magical.

[brian]

In terms of Galadriel, I'm under the impression that she serves as a two fold plot device.

Firstly, the visions help emphasise events that are occuring across Middle-Earth. The use of Galadriel helps to show events happening far from the Fellowship without distracting from them.

Secondly, it also helps add a sense of foreboding - of apprehension - and builds up significant tension to carry some way into the rest of the book. For example, the consequences of failure - and the fact that Sauron is powerful enough to see Frodo even in that place - as if Sauron has grown almost omniscient. How could Frodo possibly succeed such a major foe?

I'm not too certain how the topic is covered in other fantasy so much - but I'm generally under the impression that no particular degree of thought has gone into the actual theology of the world. And if there's no real development of the theology, then the prophecy element can easily look superficial and unsatisfactory.

[dwndrgn]

Used in the way you've described, oracles could be very handy indeed. I can see where it is easier to allow an oracle to 'show' something that is important to the story but would be too distracting if explained or examined in full.

I would find the idea of an oracle fun and magical if I could stop my sceptical brain from saying 'yeah, right!' every time one comes up.

There is one fantasy trilogy by Elizabeth Hayden (begins with Rhapsody^) that uses a magical dragon/deity/being to show possible futures to those that may ask. This one is fun because we all know the saying 'Be careful what you ask for...' as the oracle is malicious in the extreme and while she *has* to show you 'truth' she can twist your request around so that you may be seeing something out of context or something that isn't going to affect what the supplicant is working towards. So, in a story I enjoy them and their riddles. In reality? I suppose I'm just a cynical old stick-in-the-mud.

^Rhapsody is the story of a woman who, by the event of her insulting a sadistic nutcase, gains a strange brother and a monsterish protector and escapes the destruction of her land, and ends up in another land many years in her future. Very nicely written with lots of thought put into the consequences of an individual's actions.

[GnomeoftheWest]

Oracles were the means with which the Gods could communicate with man to assure that certain mortals would reach thier fate (when mortals believed in such things). I believe they carried over into fantasy literature simply as a means to give direction or help a hero on his quest (thus indicating to the hero that he was on the side of good and right).
I'll have to consult the writings of Joseph Campbell on this.

[brian]

Whopps - earlier typo - should be:

I'm generally under the impression that if no particular degree of thought has gone into the actual theology

Joseph Cambell - I believe that name is familiar - under the impression that Lucas referenced him when shaping his original "Star Wars" plot.

A very real danger is that oracles can simply give away future plot - ie, "you're a mighty warrior who will not be defeated by man" will likely mean killed by a woman/child/disease (a sort of base play on MacBeth versus MacDuff).

(Now how on earth did we move from Oracles to Galadriel to Star Wars to MacBeth?)

[littlemissattitude]

The thing that has always fascinated me about the ancient Greek oracles is that their answers were always so ambiguous. No matter what question was asked, the answer seemed to be worded in such a way that no matter what happened, the oracle's words could be interpreted as having been correct. Pretty handy, if you ask me.

[brian]

Certainly true - though, no coubt, the various replies have had a handy helping of hindsight through propaganda and exaggerated rumour.

There's a thread which reports recent geological research that confirms what Plutarch described - that a natural gas spring under the temple of Delphi was intoxicating the priesthood there:

http://www.chronicles-network.net/fo...php?thread=232

[dwndrgn]

So a bunch of stoners were relaying their..er..'visions' as prophesy? Ha! See that on the streets every day...

But what gave them the idea that they had the ability to do so in the first place? It's got me puzzled. I mean you hear of people all of the time who profess to be the ear of god or somesuch nonsense (like the Son of Sam who took orders from a dog that was relaying God's messages to kill...) but how do they get the credibility to continue forward? Why would people believe in them enough to make them such a powerful force? Are they all of the same makeup as types like Hitler where charm and personality and personal faith gets them everywhere? I dunno. I suppose I never will either. Oh well, add it to the humungous pile of questions I'll never find an answer to...

[brian]

[quote author=dwndrgn link=board=2;threadid=526;start=0#msg3933 date=1061827027]
Why would people believe in them enough to make them such a powerful force?
[/quote]

Personally, I'd recommend that tradition plays a very important part of it. The Delphic oracle was a particularly old site, that appears to have been used for perhaps thousands of years.

Plus the fact that there was actually something mind-bending going on suggests that they were not prone to fall to the simple trickery I imagine other ancient oracle sites may or may not have attempted, in an attempt tp popularise thmeselves.