Storm of Swords

[I, Brian]

****** WARNING!! Spoilers throughout this thread! *****


So I'm finally reading Storm of Swords - which for some reason is published in the UK as two novels: 1: Steel and Snow; 2:Blood and Gold

It's decent reading in that George R R Martin continues to show great prowess at writing individual scenes.

But I keep feeling frustrated, not simply by the feeling that he's writing too many characters, but the feeling that he keeps writing otherwise peripheral characters as point-of-view characters.

The whole series feels like about 5 other epics all written into one, which makes Storm of Swords feel unwieldy and overly constructed.

George is obviously trying to write a huge epic, and show us every single aspect of this epic in motion - but do we really need to see each part in motion?

George is a talented writer, I don't claim otherwise - but...I'm a plot man - I like to work with grand concepts - - - and while I'm fine and happy to read Storm of Swords, it constantly gives the impression of being a fantasy soap opera, rather than being an actual epic.

The story itself seems to have given away so much ground to simply observing character interractions, especially where these character interractions have little immediate bearing on plot.

I am enjoying reading Storm of Swords, but especially once I abandon the idea that it is going to go anywhere and soon.

Anyway - 2c thrown to the ravenous wolves and lions.

(And remember, it's simply my personal opinion, and everybody is welcome to disagree as much as they feel the wish to. )

[Jay]

The story itself seems to have given away so much ground to simply observing character interractions, especially where these character interractions have little immediate bearing on plot.

STORM of SWORDS SPOILERS


I think there are a lot of different examples of what you describe as "Grand concepts" that are occuring with the personal interactions. The enitre topic of the Prince that was Promsied for instance, What is John 's Heritage,? Who are the Dragons? Is young Griff Aegon? I think it's really difficult to gauge what interactions have minimal bearing on the plot, when were not even in the middle of the series. It's quite possible what we percieve as being insignificant is extremely relevant.

*shrugs shudders* Everyone has an opinion, however, IMHO this is clearly the best current epic fantasy being written, and although I love Mr. Bakker's Prince of Nothing series, and think its rather brilliant as well, I think A Song of Ice and Fire is not only the class of the epic genre, but in class by itself at the moment.

[Young Wolf]

Very interesting take on GRRM I Brian. Your comments on Martin's broken-up style does resonate with me. I felt the same way when I first read book 1. I first thought that Bran, Jon and Ned were the main characters. Then came an Arya chapter, then a Catelyn chapter, then Sansa etc. I sort of felt the same way while reading a Clash of Kings, but I enjoyed those books immensly. I still think that we could do without the POV's of Arya and Sansa. I must say though that ASOS is the best of the bunch, and it will all come together more or less in this book. This is the only book in this series where we get a feeling of Martin's direction and you won't feel as lost in all the many different characters and plotlines. I've always thought that we have yet to see the best of GRRM. As for this series being a soap opera, as someone who has struggled through all of Robert Jordan's books, I must respectfully disagree. Character interactions is one of Martin's strengths.

[AryaUnderfoot]

Originally Posted by Young Wolf

Very interesting take on GRRM I Brian. Your comments on Martin's broken-up style does resonate with me. I felt the same way when I first read book 1. I first thought that Bran, Jon and Ned were the main characters. Then came an Arya chapter, then a Catelyn chapter, then Sansa etc. I sort of felt the same way while reading a Clash of Kings, but I enjoyed those books immensly. I still think that we could do without the POV's of Arya and Sansa. I must say though that ASOS is the best of the bunch, and it will all come together more or less in this book. This is the only book in this series where we get a feeling of Martin's direction and you won't feel as lost in all the many different characters and plotlines. I've always thought that we have yet to see the best of GRRM. As for this series being a soap opera, as someone who has struggled through all of Robert Jordan's books, I must respectfully disagree. Character interactions is one of Martin's strengths.

Hmmm. Where's Hodor these days? I'm sure he'd have quite a bit to say on this subject.

As for the many points of view in these books, I suppose that's why I love them. It would be different if all the characters were in the same place at the same time, reflecting on the same plotlines. But the way George writes, well... I consider it to be a gem, multi-faceted, with each individual character's life and experiencing coming together to construct a much bigger thing. You can't cut out Arya, or Sansa, or Bran, or Tyrion- they're in different places, experiencing completely different things. While some of their POVs may not be quite as exciting or riveting as some of the others, they still are able to clue us in on what is going on in certain parts of Westeros, and they often bear witness to greater happenings than they realize. In addition, every story has the lesser characters, but that does not make them any less important; reading about this child and that adult helps us to connect with what is actually going on. If it was simply Joe Hero riding around on his horse and fighting in battles, I'm sure that very few of us would be able to become deeply involved in the plot.

PS- Young Wolf, Arya rocks, don't mess with her you STUPID!!! JK.

[AryaUnderfoot]

PS- way to stoke the fires, I, Brian.

[Jay]

Young Wolf, Arya rocks,

I agree, Martin does an incredible job of foreshadowing all around, but particulary with Arya.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by AryaUnderfoot

PS- way to stoke the fires, I, Brian.

Indeed - discussion topics are good.

I'm also aware that there is a huge event about to take place in Storm of Swords, which could well show masterful use of plot - but I will not think the word "Freys", so that I can at least be a little surprised when it happens.

[AryaUnderfoot]

I, Brian, I'm telling you- you won't be able to sleep at night after said huge event. Keep a nice teddy bear handy.

[Winters_Sorrow]

I like the multiple viewpoints - it allows you to 'see' the other side of the story from the bad guys view. A refreshing idea and helps give insight into why the likes of Cersei is so driven (out of survival and that of her children)

[Young Wolf]

Originally Posted by AryaUnderfoot

PS- Young Wolf, Arya rocks, don't mess with her you STUPID!!! JK.

LOL, I thought I would get trouble from you with that Arya comment. But seriously, I like her as much as anybody, she would make a cool little sister. But when I re-read ASOFAI and I skip all of her chapters, I find that I haven't missed out on that much plot-wise. I just think that Martin Put in the Stark sisters because otherwise his stories would ooze with testosterone (hope I spelled this right). Something tells me Martin once had chapters for Rob but was told by his publishers he needs more female POV's.

[AryaUnderfoot]

Let's just agree to disagree here, Young Wolf. Or better yet, we could both agree that I'm right and you're wrong- whatever you're comfortable with.

See, if you cut out Sansa's chapters, for example, you wouldn't find out how much of a swine Joffrey is, how conniving Cersei is, the history behind Sandor Clegane, how Joffrey dies, how Jon Arryn was killed, etc. etc.

If you cut out Arya's chapters (Heaven forbid), well, for starters you'd lose a cool character, and you'd never find out what is going on outside of King's Landing and the battlegrounds, not to mention all of that delightful business with Jaqen H'gar and the valar morghulis code. Arya is going to grow into a much more interesting and important character, just you wait and see.

Also, in regards to your thoughts about them being added just to provide a dash of estrogen to the pages, I don't think so. They're too well thought out for that, and you just gotta have those roses among the thorns.

[a|one]

Originally Posted by AryaUnderfoot

See, if you cut out Sansa's chapters, for example, you wouldn't find out how much of a swine Joffrey is, how conniving Cersei is, the history behind Sandor Clegane, how Joffrey dies, how Jon Arryn was killed, etc. etc.

If you cut out Arya's chapters (Heaven forbid), well, for starters you'd lose a cool character, and you'd never find out what is going on outside of King's Landing and the battlegrounds

You would still learn about Cersei and Joffrey from Tyrion and Eddard's chapters.

Personally I could have done without Sansa's chapters as well, though I really enjoyed Arya's.

While I think Arya is a very cool character and as I said enjoyed reading about her, I think it would have been possible to write the series without giving her a POV.

[Young Wolf]

Originally Posted by AryaUnderfoot

Let's just agree to disagree here, Young Wolf. Or better yet, we could both agree that I'm right and you're wrong- whatever you're comfortable with.

See, if you cut out Sansa's chapters, for example, you wouldn't find out how much of a swine Joffrey is, how conniving Cersei is, the history behind Sandor Clegane, how Joffrey dies, how Jon Arryn was killed, etc. etc.

If you cut out Arya's chapters (Heaven forbid), well, for starters you'd lose a cool character, and you'd never find out what is going on outside of King's Landing and the battlegrounds, not to mention all of that delightful business with Jaqen H'gar and the valar morghulis code. Arya is going to grow into a much more interesting and important character, just you wait and see.

Also, in regards to your thoughts about them being added just to provide a dash of estrogen to the pages, I don't think so. They're too well thought out for that, and you just gotta have those roses among the thorns.

Hmmmm, well said. I see your point about Arya and it does look like she will be an important character in future books. Almost everything we found out through Sansa though, could have been seen through the eyes of Tyrion or Cersei, if GRRM had decided to include her earlier. So, at least we agree that the "Wild Child" doesn't get voted off the island. In ten years she may even be a bigger bada** than Jon.

[Lord of Winterfell]

Its about time you finally got around to ASoS, I, Brian... its GRRM's best to date. This was the book that convinced me that GRRM is indeed, the class of the genre.

I respect your criticisms of the series, I, Brian... they are valid points. But I think you should just surrender to the pleasure of reading an author at the height of his creative powers...

If you can just concentrate on enjoying the tale, without picking it apart as you read it, I think you will count yourself amongst the legions of GRRM devotees...

If not... well, there's always Goodkind.

[Raven]

On the 'split paperback' - this was the decision of the publisher, who felt that the book was simply too big to be viable as a single pb. Some people have accused them of cashing in, but I think they were right. I have a copy of the long version of 'The Stand' in pb, and it barely survived one reading. The print was tiny, the pages tissue-thin, and the spine cracked to b*ggery before I was halfway through.

I mention this because it seems likely that AFFC might suffer the same fate.

On the number of POVs, I somewhat agree with Brian that there needs to be a tighter focus. For me, AGOT was perfect in that regard: not a wasted chapter in the book. ASOS slipped from that standard, I agree. It is not nearly as economical and meanders more.

The bad news is that the number of POVs in AFFC will increase - by quite a few. The good news is that some (including longstanding POV characters) will get only a chapter or two, and that GRRM is alert to the danger and has promised to trim the number in the usual manner - ie, killing them off.