New GRRM Update on ADWD

[No One]

Viz - you don't think that the "Finish the Book, George" thing is just a tad overboard, obsessive, and outright hateful?

I could understand someone being a fan of the books but not the man (as you say, everyone's different and I'm not going to play judge), but to be a fan of the books and to so evidently loathe the man just doesn't make sense to me. Not that I read a great deal of it (I stumbled on it a while back as i'm sure most of us have), but to put so much time and effort into being so relentlessly spiteful is low-beyond-low and doesn't say much for the writer/s of the site who have nothing better to do. The whole thing seems like a glaring oxymoron to me.

Anyway, nuff said. I have to hit the sack. 'Night all.

[southron sword]

Originally Posted by viZion

Why does anyone even care if I don't like him? I have my opinions of him and you and Wert and everyone else has theirs. If we want to get into flame wars about it we can head over to Westeros. I come here because I'd rather just stick to talking about the series itself.

If you dont care what other people think of your opinions then why write this? Obviously you do.
I do agree that we should stick to the series itself.

P.S. It's just a book, and he is just a man.

[xLORDSNOWx]

Imp, enough already, please finish the f&@%ing series before everyone in here hangs themselves with their keyboard cords!

[viZion]

Originally Posted by No One

Viz - you don't think that the "Finish the Book, George" thing is just a tad overboard, obsessive, and outright hateful

A lot of their older posts are funny. A lot of the later stuff I didn't even bother to read because it's too tl;dr. I'm of the opinion that blog writers need to learn to be concise. It's the internet and when I'm on the internet my attention span is

[Ursa major]

Originally Posted by No One

...but to be a fan of the books and to so evidently loathe the man just doesn't make sense to me.

We do it in other arts: plenty of folk love Wagner's music**, including a fair few (well, not few at all; probably most of them who know anything about him) who loathe the man***. (And he is, sadly, not alone among the great artists in being loathsome.)

(Oh, and I'd better say that I can't see how GRRM is at all loathsome.)



** - For very good reasons.

*** - For very (and for many, not just the obvious) good reasons.

[Werthead]

...well, as far as ethics are concerned, he agreed to a deadline then completely disregarded it.

When? And I mean a deadline, set in stone, immovable, a guarantee signed in blood, not some, "Well, hopefully, if everything goes okay, it might be possible to hit this date," comment.

Originally Posted by viZion

Here's really how I view it (fair or not, I honestly could care less): If I produced at my job like GRRM produces at his, I'd be fired.

This is the worst analogy possible, and one people keep bringing up time and again despite its utter irrelevance. Unless you are independently financially self-sufficient outside of your job, and unless you work as a freelancer producing a complete product which you do not receive any money for at all until it is completed no matter how long it takes, there is no comparison at all.

I do think he's irreponsible with his "working" time though. Could I be wrong? Yeah, but it's also not an unreasonable assertion.

Of course it is. Unless you've been to his house and seen how he uses his working time, you are again going off nothing but his blog posts and putting 2 and 2 together to make 17.

If it was a simple matter of bashing out 400,000 words no matter what, then ADWD would have been finished, at the very latest, two years ago, easily. Since that did not happen, other issues in the narrative, the structure of the books and other issues (timelines, character arcs and so on) have to be causing issues resulting in the huge swathes of rewrites we are seeing. Talking about those things can be fascinating (but then I'm the sort of person who finds the books about Tolkien writing LotR fascinating, other people don't really care), as they are the real reason ADWD is taking so long, not some simplistic association with convention-going and miniature-painting.

I think people would be plenty understanding if he didn't show up to sign their copies of Wildcards XIVXMIICLXXII if they knew he had other work committments (and everyone knows that what most people are interested in is ASOIAF..this is actually the main point brought up by "Finish the Book, George").

This is something else amusing. For whatever reason, the 'detractors' particularly seem to loathe Wild Cards and GRRM working on the new books, despite the fact that it came a long time before ASoIaF, it was very successful in its own right and in fact its high sales allowed GRRM to get a good deal when he sold ASoIaF to Bantam, and is still popular (otherwise Tor wouldn't be publishing the new books and reprinting the old ones). The position seems to be that since ASoIaF is now bigger, GRRM should never mention Wild Cards again or work on it at all. The basis for this seems to be respecting the apparent will of the majority, the majority being ASoIaF fans, even though I don't remember them taking a vote on it.

However, they went ape when GRRM (admittedly massively prematurely) banned book spoiler discussions on his blog for the benefit of perspective fans of the TV series because it was a slap in the face to his long-standing book fans who'd been around for years, despite the fact that GRRM is, consistently with their position, respecting the same democratic principle. Based even on typical HBO ratings, it is likely that more people will watch the first episode of the TV series than have ever read the books worldwide. Surely that counts for more? Or is the argument that GRRM should respect his fans and readers who came first, in which case he can talk about Wild Cards as much as he wants?

[xLORDSNOWx]

Originally Posted by Ursa major

We do it in other arts: plenty of folk love Wagner's music**, including a fair few (well, not few at all; probably most of them who know anything about him) who loathe the man***. (And he is, sadly, not alone among the great artists in being loathsome.)

(Oh, and I'd better say that I can't see how GRRM is at all loathsome.)

I can think of a few people in their professions that are great at their jobs but are total pricks in their personal lives IMO.

Brett Favre - my favorite football player of all time, but is annoying the heck out of me with his indecision and dragging this thing out like no other hall of fame bound retiring athlete.

Tiger Woods - Many may say the greatest golfer of all time, but a great person???

Michael Jordan - same scenario.

A coworker - great system administrator in his own right, but I would never invite him over for dinner.

My point is everyone has their opinions and have their rights to voice them. However, when you have a global forum there are some who exercise their freedom of speech and some who are just appauled by that right ( especially on an anonymous forum)

There are some in hear whom i love to listen to their theories on ASOIAF, but turned completely off (and vice versa) when delving into their personal lives in the "What are we watching" thread. (no shot at you No One)

I have posted my frustration of the time it has taken, but will not get in a debate out of respect for those who have been waiting alot longer than me since I've only been waiting about a year since finishing AFFC.

In a sense, he's brilliant in making everyone build up their anticipation until it bursts, but some people are loosing their heads with the wait.

Stephen King took a long time to finish the Dark Tower series. Once the fans pressured him into finishing, do you think it was of great quality as it could have been ( even though I was somewhat fine with the ending ) I too finished the whole series last year, so no wait in between. Although, I'm not sure if the anticipation matches that of GRRM.

[No One]

Ursa & LordSnow - agreed, there are pleny of people whose work I might admire while having little or no respect for the person behind it (Premiership footballers make for good examples as does perhaps the odd Michael Bay film, which I might enjoy, even if I still think the man is, well, let's not go there. I think we all like the odd Michael Jackson song too, but would hardly praise the man.

My point was specifically aimed at GRRM, who is otherwise not involved in any such scandals and seems a perfectly decent man. With regards to that site, even Joseph Fritzl probably hasn't been on the receiving end of so much invective. Like I say, it just reeks of a misguided personal vendetta.

[viZion]

Originally Posted by Werthead

This is the worst analogy possible, and one people keep bringing up time and again despite its utter irrelevance. Unless you are independently financially self-sufficient outside of your job, and unless you work as a freelancer producing a complete product which you do not receive any money for at all until it is completed no matter how long it takes, there is no comparison at all.

Nope. Still don't agree. I think the reason he's able to lead the jetsetting lifestyle he lives is because of ASOIAF. It's his biggest success and it's probably still paying quite a few bills even though he hasn't produced anything in years. His work ethic stinks. Maybe he's a nice guy but that doesn't mean everything about him is perfect. You won't change my mind on this one.

Of course it is. Unless you've been to his house and seen how he uses his working time, you are again going off nothing but his blog posts and putting 2 and 2 together to make 17.

Apparently, you find it hard to believe that I don't visit his blog. I don't know what he posts on his blog because I do not read it. Ever. I'm just not interested. My opinion is that his work ethic sucks. He probably could have used a few years in the military. But I just shrug my shoulders and move on with my life. I don't spend any time at all during my day wondering what GRRM is up to.

This is something else amusing. For whatever reason, the 'detractors' particularly seem to loathe Wild Cards

I don't really care about Wildcards or what he does or doesn't do with it. I brought it up because it's funny to me. What little I've read of it is not very good. But I'm sure you disagree. Honestly, is there any of his work that you dislike or think is weak? Anyway, my point was that the fans wouldn't care if he wasn't at some convention to sign their copies of Dying of the Light (happy now?) if they knew he had to stay home to get some work done. Note I'm not even saying what I think he should be working on.

However, they went ape when GRRM (admittedly massively prematurely) banned book spoiler discussions on his blog for the benefit of perspective fans of the TV series because it was a slap in the face to his long-standing book fans who'd been around for years, despite the fact that GRRM is, consistently with their position, respecting the same democratic principle. Based even on typical HBO ratings, it is likely that more people will watch the first episode of the TV series than have ever read the books worldwide. Surely that counts for more? Or is the argument that GRRM should respect his fans and readers who came first, in which case he can talk about Wild Cards as much as he wants?

Yeah, I don't know what you're talking about here. Because I don't read his blog or follow his life. So I hope you're not including me in your "they". I still think his work ethic sucks; I still think he's irresponsible and I still think it's been a pattern throughout his career. He has a history of missing deadlines. Maybe he's an awesome guy to hang out with if I got to know him. That still wouldn't change my opinion of his work habits. I don't feel like I have to be all or nothing in my opinions of people. I love my family members but recognize that they have faults, too.

[Clansman]

Wow. You go away for a few days, and the place explodes!

I'm in with Wert, Boaz and Imp on this. The great works of art took a long time. How do you think Michelangelo reacted when the Pope got a little peeved about the time he took on the Sistine Chapel? Writing the book is not the same as installing steering wheels on an assembly line, providing legal services, or building a house. A builder has a plan from which to build, a lawyer has procedures and rules to follow, and the person installing steering wheels has training and is doing the same job over and over and over. The artist (whether writer, musician, painter, sculptor, etc.) does not get the benefit of having that kind of structure. Art by its very nature is free of all kinds of structure.

Quota, when it comes to art and the creative process, is completely and utterly irrelevant. Call the man lazy if you want, no one is in a position to judge him, which makes any such judgments of little value. Also, GRRM has cost himself a great deal by taking so long with this book, and he is obviously painfully aware of the fact. And by the way, he can't have been watching football for the last five months, as the football season only goes from September to the end of January, and it is only on Sundays and Monday nights, plus American Thanksgiving in late November (a Thursday). Hardly a shocking amount of time. Thank God that he is not as avid a baseball fan (April to November, thousands of games, and post-season play) as he is of football.

ASoIaF as a series, and ADWD as a book, are obviously difficult to write, just as the Sistine Chapel was difficult to paint. You cannot put a deadline on creativity, as much as you might like to, and if the author has lost his muse, or is struggling with it, but produces anyway, what you get is crap. I don't want crap from GRRM, because what has gone before is so good. I would rather that he drop dead this instant than sell out to those who demand a book at the cost of his producing a great piece of art. At least what he had already written would stand as having been very well done. (No, I am not one of those who fears his death before the series is finished).

Anyway, any updates on ADWD? That's what this thread is about, isn't it?

[TK-421]

Let those without faults cast the first stone.

[Boaz]

Where's my trebuchet?

Professional football in the US actually starts this year on Thursday, Sep. 9. Every week features a Monday night game, except the last week, Week 17. Almost all games are played on Sundays. Weeks 11-16 will feature a Thursday game as well, with Week 12 (Thanksgiving) having three games. Oh, and they throw in a Christmas Day game as well... on Saturday this year. The playoffs should commence on January 9, 2011 and culminate with the Super Bowl on Feb 6. That's exactly five months.

But if you include the month of pre-season games, and the three week wait after the Super Bowl to finish up the Pro Bowl (football's All Star Game), then the season takes seven months.

But the week after the Pro Bowl features the Combines (the combined work outs by college players under the watchful eyes of every NFL coach and executive). The week after that (around the second week of March) the NFL opens up trading season and free agent signing season. Then in late March or early April, the owners will have their yearly meetings. In the first week of April, all teams will open up for voluntary workouts and OTA's (optional team activities)... which all players are expected to attend. The NFL will hold its annual drafting of collegiate players at the end of April. The mandato... err, I mean voluntary workouts and practices will continue up through the end of June. In the second week of July, all teams will begin official training and last for one month. In the middle of this, the NFL will have it's Hall of Fame induction ceremony. Training camp officially ends with the first pre-season game in early August.

It neeeveeeer stops...

Sooooo... professional football actually is a year around activity in America. Since the full schedule keeps me from getting work done, I'd never expect the same from George.

[Culhwch]

And I understand that in the US there is a channel that shows NFL and NFL-related programming 24/7. Sounds like nirvana to me. And wholly distracting.

Having said that, I'm happy for George to veg out and watch whatever the hell he wants, whenever the hell he wants. Just as I'd suspect he'd be happy for me to do the same.

[Boaz]

NFL Network has NFL 24/7. ESPN and ESPN 2 report on it every single day of the year. ESPN Classic shows old games. CBS, Fox, NBC, and ESPN all currently have contracts to show regular season games... plus the NFL Network.

Did you guys ever watch Idiocracy? In that movie, Americans favorite TV shows are OW! My Balls! and the Masturbation Network.... 'Batin' is like, well you know what tha's like, but OW! My Balls! is a combination of America's Funniest Home Videos and the NFL.

It's amazing that Americans get any work done.

Heard in every house this fall...

Brees goes deep to Colston... Touchdown, Saints! <Click> Dear, I just want to catch the news... The Gulf Oil Spill continues into it's eighth month today... Dammit, Virginia! Put the f*&#! game back on!!! <Click> Sorry, dear... Hartley makes the kick and New Orleans goes up 28-0...

I no longer waste much time on football. I'm only in three fantasy leagues this year.

[Culhwch]

Originally Posted by Boaz

I no longer waste much time on football. I'm only in three fantasy leagues this year.

Why have you never dropped by the NFL thread? I keep telling you, it's not such a scary world out there. We keep the more deranged members on chains.

Well, most of them.