A POV Shift, help needed (possibly)

[Boneman]

As I'm on a roll with the help you've all been giving, I'd like to beg your indulgence for further input. There's a major shift in POV at the end of this scene, and I really like it! Thing is, is it wrong? It certainly adds to the story (and in a previous scene we've seen how the dreadful deed that's been inflicted comes about), but I'm blind to how I could get the same pathos and horros across....... All ideas and criticisms welcome, as always.

A little background: Some Warriors of this kingdom have been banished, along with all their families, by order of the High Priest, who wishes to hide something...... Ah'Lat is betrothed to one of the foresworn Warriors, and she arrives at the Western Gate as they are waiting to be driven from the city to certain death in the Western Desert. Any foresworn Warrior who speaks will have his tongue torn out..... Did I mention the High Priest is a baddun? (Oh, and yes, I know it's American spelling!)


The scene that greeted her made her quail, and she felt her legs weaken. There were over a hundred people gathered in a group, surrounded by Warriors who watched over them like hawks. Citizens had gathered to see the dishonored leave the city forever, and they threw filth at them, excrement and animal blood, shouting curses at them, calling on the Gods to punish them for eternity. She saw a small boy of about seven years standing alongside his mother, trembling from head to toe. The mother held a small baby that cried remorselessly, and she was so traumatized that she was barely conscious of it, offering no comfort. The boy held a grisly object in his arms and Ah’Lat was startled to see it was a bloodied human head. Tears ran down the boy’s face, and he leant into his mother, lost. Her mouth set in a tight line, and she pushed her way through the jeering crowd to the line of Warriors. As she made to step past them a Warrior thrust an arm in her way, and glared at her.
“You may not pass here,” he grated at her, his face angry, and shoved her backward. She clutched at his arm, scoring her ring along his forearm. He gasped loudly and whitened, sweat breaking out on his face and neck.
“You have one hundred heartbeats to live,” she hissed back at him, “unless you let me pass.”
The poison she had administered was as deadly as she promised, and she knew that Warriors detested their use and feared dying by them, their honor destroyed. His legs collapsed, and he sat suddenly, his eyes wide. A blade flashed at her throat, a second Warrior holding her at arm’s length.
“Give him the antidote,” he rasped. “Now!”
“Not unless I am allowed to join the foresworn.”
The Warrior on the ground began to hyperventilate, his breath labored. The sword wavered for a moment, then was lowered.
“Agreed.” The word was torn from him with utmost reluctance.
Ah’Lat bent one knee and scored his other forearm with the ring on her left hand, standing immediately. She looked into the second Warrior’s eyes, as he blazed at her.
“You have no honor,” he grated through clenched teeth. “You belong with the foresworn.”
“I would sooner be foresworn than have innocent children slaughtered to uphold my honor,” she spat back at him, and turned away. She made her way to the boy, and knelt beside him. Terror flared in his eyes as she touched his arm tenderly, and he flinched violently.
“Let me take this,” she murmured softly, and gently prized his hands from the awful thing that he held. He had carried his father’s head all the way from the eastern gate, and did not understand. He had tried to be brave, but he could not comprehend what was happening, and for a moment he clung to his mother’s leg. Ah’Lat rested the head gently on the ground, and put her arms around him, her heart breaking with his fear and anguish. For a moment he stood stiffly, then he flung his arms around her and sobbed his pain and torment into her shoulder, his small body racked with suffering. She held him close and rocked him over and over, her own tears falling onto his head.

[ctg]

No, no and no. This is not elegant.

Her POV
His POV
Omniscient narrator

Originally Posted by Boneman

The scene that greeted her made her quail, and she felt her legs weaken. There were over a hundred people gathered in a group, surrounded by Warriors who watched over them like hawks. Citizens had gathered to see the dishonored leave the city forever, and they threw filth at them, excrement and animal blood, shouting curses at them, calling on the Gods to punish them for eternity. She saw a small boy of about seven years standing alongside his mother, trembling from head to toe. The mother held a small baby that cried remorselessly, and she was so traumatized that she was barely conscious of it, offering no comfort. The boy held a grisly object in his arms and Ah’Lat was startled to see it was a bloodied human head.Tears ran down the boy’s face, and he leant into his mother, lost. Her mouth set in a tight line, and she pushed her way through the jeering crowd to the line of Warriors. As she made to step past them a Warrior thrust an arm in her way, and glared at her.

“You may not pass here,” he grated at her, his face angry, and shoved her backward. She clutched at his arm, scoring her ring along his forearm. He gasped loudly and whitened, sweat breaking out on his face and neck.

“You have one hundred heartbeats to live,” she hissed back at him, “unless you let me pass.”

The poison she had administered was as deadly as she promised, and she knew that Warriors detested their use and feared dying by them, their honor destroyed. His legs collapsed, and he sat suddenly, his eyes wide. A blade flashed at her throat, a second Warrior holding her at arm’s length.

“Give him the antidote,” he rasped. “Now!”

“Not unless I am allowed to join the foresworn.”

The Warrior on the ground began to hyperventilate, his breath labored. The sword wavered for a moment, then was lowered.

“Agreed.” The word was torn from him with utmost reluctance.

Ah’Lat bent one knee and scored his other forearm with the ring on her left hand, standing immediately. She looked into the second Warrior’s eyes, as he blazed at her.

“You have no honor,” he grated through clenched teeth. “You belong with the foresworn.”

“I would sooner be foresworn than have innocent children slaughtered to uphold my honor,” she spat back at him, and turned away. She made her way to the boy, and knelt beside him. Terror flared in his eyes as she touched his arm tenderly, and he flinched violently.

“Let me take this,” she murmured softly, and gently prized his hands from the awful thing that he held. He had carried his father’s head all the way from the eastern gate, and did not understand. He had tried to be brave, but he could not comprehend what was happening, and for a moment he clung to his mother’s leg. Ah’Lat rested the head gently on the ground, and put her arms around him, her heart breaking with his fear and anguish. For a moment he stood stiffly, then he flung his arms around her and sobbed his pain and torment into her shoulder, his small body racked with suffering. She held him close and rocked him over and over, her own tears falling onto his head.

POV shift.
1. Write first person POV as close as you can to the end of the scene
2. Drop out to the omniscient narrative and paint a larger picture
3. Drop in second person POV and continue to end of the scene
4. Rinse and repeat

When I talk about POV, that is focused one to the end of the scene. No mixing in between. Because that confuses readers. You want to flow with your narrative.

I'm sorry if this upsets you.

[ctg]

Another way to do the shift,
1. Begin the scene from first person POV as close as you can get
2. Continue narrating but do not go in personal thoughts or feelings, just paint a big picture
3. Drop in second POV and slowly reel into the thoughts and feelings

[crystal haven]

For me, reading this, I didn't find a problem with the POV at the beginning. For me, it feels as if she is seeing the child, tearful and lost.

If you are writing a large part of the story from the POV of the child, then getting into his head is needed, and I didn't find it confusing.

If it is just this small bit of writing from this POV then there could be another way to bring the information and the emotion in. Use the men. If, of course, they know this information in your story.

"Papa," the child murmured.

Behind her a man laughed. "Stupid child! Must have carried his father's head all the way from the eastern gate."


I'm not saying this should be used, just an example. I'm sure yours would be a lot better than mine.

I found this quite moving to read. Emotional.

[MistingWolf]

I suppose I didn't mind the shift, but I did notice this:

“Let me take this,” she murmured softly, and gently prized his hands from the awful thing that he held.

Perhaps you mean, "pried from his hands"?

Otherwise, I really like it. I like how the woman says she'd rather be outcasted than to kill children just for honor. I find that more honorable.

[TheEndIsNigh]

The problem I have with POV's and ctg's contribution and his careful POV extraction is that I wasn't at all confused. It all seemed perfectly lifelike to me in that it narrated things as they may have occurred.

Life isn't a your turn for ten minutes, now it's my turn shut up. It's immediate it's people talking over others. Now you can't easily get this in descriptive writing however, you can try.

Unfortunately, it appears that the power that publish (by all accounts) prefer this my turn, your turn form of writing so I suppose we have to conform if we expect to be published by them.

Only thing that seems odd to me was that he rested his head on her shoulder which makes him a tall seven year old or she had to stoop to put the head on the floor - which could be made clearer.

[Peter Graham]

Boneman,

He had carried his father’s head all the way from the eastern gate, and did not understand. He had tried to be brave, but he could not comprehend what was happening, and for a moment he clung to his mother’s leg. Ah’Lat rested the head gently on the ground, and put her arms around him, her heart breaking with his fear and anguish. For a moment he stood stiffly, then he flung his arms around her and sobbed his pain and torment into her shoulder, his small body racked with suffering. She held him close and rocked him over and over, her own tears falling onto his head.

For what it is worth (and without wishing to disagree too strongly with CTG), I don't think that you actually p.o.v. shift at all until you get to the above piece. The earlier parts all read OK from the p.o.v of Ah'Lat - we see what she is seeing and feel what she is feeling, but at no point do we see or feel anything which she couldn't possibly know about or ascertain from the cues around her.

Until we get to the above extract. Blue for Mum, red for lad. You switch three times in one paragraph. This is very bad practice. It might be how people speak in real life (to paraphrase TEIN), but it isn't how we read books. It's not just publisher arrogance, either. Strong writing requires strong characters. We need to go on the journey with our hero or heroine. The thinner you spread it, the weaker the individual characters will become.

The easy way to fix this is to rewrite the red bits from Mum's p.o.v - she knows her son, so she would have a fair chance of knowing how he feels. You can still convey what you want to convey without having to get us into his head.

And without wishing to upset MW, it's "prised" (for the verb "to prise"). "Prized" means favoured or preferred - "a prized possession". "Pried" means snooping or spying - "he pried into her affairs" (from the verb "to pry").

Regards,

Peter. Who prised open the cupboard in order to pry at Mrs Graham's prized chitting potatoes.

Regards

[Boneman]

Thank you all for the excellent input, I'm so grateful. God I love these threads......

Ctg, thanks for your usual prompt response, which made me focus on the changes. I did feel that it was only the last shift that was a problem. (see below re descriptive prose vs narrator)

CrystalHaven, I'm glad you found it emotional, because I get a bit choked whenever I read it, and I wrote the damn thing! The boy only appears in this scene and isn't mentioned again (until book 2 of the trilogy) so you're right about the importance (or lack of) of him as a character.

Mistingwolf, you're right, it should be prised, the poor kid's hanging on grimly, totally traumatised.

TEIN, I know exactly what you mean about your turn/my turn, and although virtually everybody says it's wrong to shift pov in a scene, I see it happening in so many books (and recent ones) that I really enjoy. I guess the only way to have a fixed pov is to write in the first person, something I'm not up to! Oh, it does say she knelt beside him.....

It was only that last shift where the narrotor told us what had happened to the boy that I felt was the problem, and Peter has pointed that very well, echoing ctg's earlier feedback. I feel that sometimes descriptive prose is too often viewed as the omniscient narrator, when it is just descriptive prose. At least it makes me focus better.

I'm really pleased with all your feedback and comments. We did see the boy's father killed in an earlier scene, so after your comments, it occurs to me that I may be labouring a point, that the audience would guess what had happened (the families of the dishonoured are ordered to carry even the dead into exile) which means I wouldn't have to get into the kid's head at all - thanks Peter, it was a lightbulb moment when I read your comments! What the heck is a chitting potato?

Boneman

[Peter Graham]

Glad to be of some service!

The question to ask yourself is always "am I imparting something which my chosen narrator could not possibly know?" If you are, you need to decide whether you are going to impart it in a later chapter (you may be using more than one character p.o.v) or whether you are going to bring it out via dialogue or as an inference from the general circumstances of the action you are describing. A good example of this is the dialogue between Gandalf and the Mouth of Sauron in Return of the King. We know exactly how the latter is feeling and why he is feeling that way without ever getting into his head (ignore the original description of him as he emerges, as that does drift into head hop...).

And now over to gardener's corner...

A chitting potato is a seed potato which is being prepared for planting. You leave them out somewhere warm and light so that they sprout thick little green shoots (or chits). This gives them a head start when you stick them in the ground and also ensures that you plant them the right way up!

Regards,

Peter

[TheEndIsNigh]

Boneman: apologies -missed it sorry

[The Judge]

Right. Now the boys have wittered on about POV (will I ever understand it?) I'll deal with the nittie-pickie things.

'There were over a hundred people gathered in a group...' I think 'people' is too neutral a word to describe the outcasts at this point. There are, after all, many more people in this area, it's just that most of them are outside the ring of Warriors. To be in a group they must have been gathered (or assembled or whatever) so one or other word is a little redundant; and again 'gathered' is too neutral - the spectators have gathered; the outcasts have been pressed together, herded, harried, beaten, frogmarched (NB how do they get the frogs to keep in step?)

'... who watched over them like hawks.' Did I mention before that you need more creativity with your images?

'... they threw filth at them, excrement and animal blood...' Respectable citizens - as these no doubt believe themselves to be - are not in the habit of scooping up s**t from the streets even to throw at traitors and the like. And unless it's formed clots, or it's in a kind of blutwurst, I have real problems with blood being thrown without some kind of receptacle from which it can be hurled. This would suggest that these citizens have come prepared - why not make a point of this? And are all the citizens doing this? Are there other women like Ah'Lat come to say goodbye and weeping? Are there agents provocateurs inciting the mob? Some detail wouldn't go amiss.

'... shouting curses at them, calling on the Gods to punish them for eternity.' I understood what you were saying but it read a little inelegantly. Firstly I don't think you can change from 'they threw' to 'shouting' quite as nonchalantly as you do; and secondly the 'thems' are proliferating. How about '... all the while shouting curses, calling on the gods [lower case usual for a plurality of deities?] to punish the outcasts...'

'She saw a small boy...' Coming on top of the concerned citizenry hurling things, without even a para break, I thought this boy was part of the crowd and that he was going to be lobbing the head towards the outcasts. You need a new para and to make it clear that Ah'lat has turned her attention away from the mob and back to the dispossessed.

'... of about seven years...' This sounded foreign, like an exact translation of the French 'il a sept ans'. Was this your intention? If not, I think it should be either ''of about seven' or 'about seven years of age' not a hybrid of the two.

'... trembling from head to toe.' This sounded a little bit cliched. The boy is beyond traumatised, you need something punchier here.

'The mother held a small baby that cried remorselessly...' We're told the boy is small so this would be repetition if it were kept, but it's redundant anyway since we can safely assume a baby is small unless we're told to the contrary -and would it matter if the baby was a big one? Emphasising their small stature isn't making the scene any more pathos-y. (I know the word should be pathetic but I'm trying to avoid the negative connotations there.) 'Remorselessly' implies a deliberate intent not to show compassion or guilt which is fine if you're dealing with adults or inanimate objects, not so appropriate for a baby except in informal speech - after all you wouldn't use the word 'pitilessly' here would you?

'... and she was so traumatized that she was barely conscious of it, offering no comfort.' This is telling and intrusive. It wouldn't be so bad if it was told from Ah'Lat's explicit POV as in 'Ah'Lat saw the woman was barely conscious of the baby's crying and guessed she was so traumatised...'

'The boy held a grisly object in his arms and Ah’Lat was startled to see it was a bloodied human head.' First you tell us it is a grisly object, then you tell us it is a bloody head. That's fine if Ah'Lat can't tell what it is initially, but you don't say that: you simply tell us the same thing twice using different words. You could usefully build up the tension a little more by making it clear she doesn't realise and why - eg blood-soaked object, boy drops it, object rolls on ground, rag covering it unrolls, human head revealed, boy scrambling to pick it up again etc. And 'startled'? 'STARTLED'?? She is horrified, disgusted, aghast, shocked, terrified, sickened. She is not startled.

'Tears ran down the boy’s face, and he leant into his mother, lost.' Children press themselves into their mother's side when they are simply shy. He'd have been doing this and more without his father having been murdered etc. You need much, much more than that here - he must be wanting to crawl into his mother's arms, he has to look panic-sticken. Have you done any research into the effect of trauma on children? Would be be crying at this point, or would he be catatonic?

'Her mouth set in a tight line, and she pushed her way through...' The last female mentioned was the boy's mother and for a moment I thought she was angry that he was touching her and was pushing him away. You need to para break and make it clear that this is Ah'Lat. And 'set' is a tricky verb to use here - it makes it sound as if the mouth is setting itself, not that Ah'Lat is doing the setting. Remove the 'and' and it works better.

'... the jeering crowd to the line of Warriors.' But they're not jeering. They're hurling imprecations and missiles and ordure. This is a baying mob only inches away from taking steps to finish off the traitors here and now.

'As she made to step past them...' Strictly, since it was 'the line of Warriors' this should be 'step past it' but since that sounds awful you'd be better off with 'him', referring forward to the Warrior who stops her. Or make it something like 'between two of the men' if you prefer.

'... and shoved her backward.' I think this needs another 'he' to make the sentence read correctly.

'She clutched at his arm, scoring her ring along his forearm.' Repetition of 'arm' is clumsy. Does she need to clutch at it? Can't she just rip the ring downwards without taking a firm hold? And 'clutched' sounds too needy, too desperate from her; gripped would be better if you're keeping the line. NB would the poison really be so near the tip of the ring - what of the risk of a child running into her hand and catching himself? Might it work better if she uncovers the stone first?

'He gasped loudly and whitened, sweat breaking out on his face and neck.' How does he know what has happened before she has spoken - is it commonplace for women to have poisonous rings? Does he know that she carries one? Can one gasp loudly? Would sweat break out so quickly?

“You have one hundred heartbeats to live,” she hissed back at him...' Why is she telling him this after he has reacted? It wouldn't be that we, the readers, need to be informed would it? If that's the case - put this line before his face whitens. And 'back' is otiose - he hasn't hissed at her.

'The poison she had administered was as deadly as she promised, and she knew that Warriors detested their use and feared dying by them, their honor destroyed.' This is all tell, tell, tell and it's wrong for it to be dumped here. If this poison is deadly we should have been shown it earlier in the story, at the same time as we find out this woman is a walking pharmacopoeia. Ditto the fact that the Warriors believe a poisoned death is a dishonourable one and why. And 'poison' is single; 'their use' and 'them', plural: change one or the other.

'His legs collapsed, and he sat suddenly, his eyes wide.' Is this the effect of the poison already? Or is he frightened? If the former, make that clear. If the latter, shouldn't he be showing rather more fortitude for one of the city's elite?

'... a second Warrior holding her at arm’s length.' I'd read this several times, puzzling over this line before I clicked that he's too scared to come within the ring's reach. Not sure if I'm thick or this needs work.

“Give him the antidote,” he rasped.' Rasped. What with 'grated' and 'hissed' we've a regular cacophony going. Can't anyone just say something? If you don't like 'said' (and I share your prejudice) how about 'demanded'?

“Not unless I am allowed to join the foresworn.” My dictionary has 'forsworn' without the 'e' (and no alternatives for US spelling either). And I assume these men have really been accused of perjury, ie swearing falsely? If not, you need another word.

'The Warrior on the ground began to hyperventilate, his breath labored.' I bow to your superior medical knowledge, but aren't these two things mutually exclusive?

“Agreed.” The word was torn from him with utmost reluctance.' The word was reluctant was it? Or do you really mean that he said it reluctantly? Anyway, doesn't the phrase sound the tiniest bit cliched? And frankly, he's capitulated a bloody sight quicker than 'reluctance' would suggest. I'd spin this out - after all the other guy has a whole 90 seconds before he dies. Would he drop his sword before she honours her part of the bargain? And would he really let her through - not just slice her head off as she stands there? (Or wouldn't that be honourable?)

'Ah’Lat bent one knee and scored his other forearm with the ring on her left hand, standing immediately.' What happens to the other knee if she's only bending one? Do you mean she's got down on one knee on the ground next to him? If not, why 'standing immediately'? If she's only stooped to him, surely she's simply straightened up again? Is there a specific reason for 'the other forearm'? If not, why mention it?

'... he grated through clenched teeth.' Grated again, I see. Can one grate this sentence through clenched teeth? (I tried - not an impressive performance. )

'She made her way to the boy...' Para break needed.

'Terror flared in his eyes as she touched his arm tenderly, and he flinched violently. “Let me take this,” she murmured softly, and gently prized his hands from the awful thing that he held.' I found it unrealistic that he would react like this to a woman touching him gently. Also, rather too many adverbs in too short a space I think. And 'awful thing' sounds a bit twee for the reality of what he's holding, it sounds like Victorian melodrama. (That's what comes of having Wilkie Collins' novels read to you with the bedtime cocoa!)

'He had carried his father’s head... her own tears falling onto his head.' You remember how harsh I was about the final paragraph in the original version of the fight scene? Well, this isn't quite as bad as that... It's no death of Little Nell (who was it who said that it would take a heart of stone not to laugh at that scene?) but it's distinctly wobbly. You need to stand back a little. Yes you need emotion here, but not corn syrup. (Personally I think the depravities and deprivations of your abnormal education have left you emotionally unstable! )

And on a general point, where is everyone else while all this is going on? I know you don't want to dissipate the tension too much, but it's as if she and the two men are isolated. What are the other Warriors doing? What about the concerned citizenry at her back? Don't any of them grab at her and pull her arm away? Not even a few calls of 'bitch' and worse as she gets inside the ring of men? Why has everything gone silent? Why isn't she being pelted?

I was confused about her being there anyway. I know you'd have said something before this scene starts, but if it was her intention to join the outcasts, surely she would have been making her way through the line of Warriors even before seeing the boy? If she has only come to say goodbye to her lover, why isn't she scanning the throng for him? He should be her focus - if she loves him, the fate of the others would be secondary to her own anguish at his forthcoming death and their eternal separation. OK - you may have done all this in the preceding scene but there still should be something here. As it reads at the moment, she's just come along as an interested bystander - there's no hint that she's got any emotional involvement with the men out there at all. And what about the lover? There must be some kind of commotion when the first guard falls to the ground - why hasn't he noticed her? A Warrior - a man who was his colleague, if not his actual friend - is holding a sword at his betrothed's throat and he's doing nothing about it? This is his woman - why the hell isn't he running across to save her? Again, you may be planning to have this explained in a later scene, but you need to give at least a hint of it here - even if only something like a ruckus on the other side of the area where two men are holding back a third.

Why has she focussed on this boy? He's done nothing to attract her attention. There must be other children there. And if they've been told to carry their dead, there may be even younger girls with their father's bodies - even if their tiny fingers are only clutching at cold, lifeless hands. And where is the rest of this boy's father? Is the body being carried by a man standing next to the mother? Why not tell us? If there are wagons for the dead why isn't the head there? Again, you may have given this info elsewhere, especially as the man's death is shown, but you need something here also, even if only in passing.

Overall, I thought the whole thing was way too rushed. This should be a real big dramatic scene, but you've cantered through it without drawing breath. You need more detail, more emotion, more sense of the fear and despair and filth and horror of it.

I've been harsh again, I know, but that's because I think you're capable of doing better than this. You've got the bare bones of a cracking scene - I'm a sucker for feisty women who talk back - but it needs a lot of work to make it the equal of the amended fight episode.

J

PS You're never going to talk to me again are you...

[ctg]

Didn't thought you were too harsh Judge. You said what I didn't, but then again, I was wishing him to take a root from my words, and try to extend the scene by putting more effort in there. Only 1 per cent of the writers can do POV shift correctly. Me, I stick with one head per chapter.

[Boneman]

by The Judge
PS You're never going to talk to me again are you...

Not unless you keep doing such good critiquing of my work........ Except you keep leaving out question marks.......?

Secretly you wanted to go to boarding School, didn't you? All those comics with 'The Four Mary's' and so on. Admit it, you're just a teeny bit jealous......

Keep the harshness coming, it's nothing that I don't deserve. (see, all those years in boarding school have shown me my place....)

[TheEndIsNigh]

The Judge:

Right. Now the boys have wittered on about POV (will I ever understand it?) I'll deal with the nittie-pickie things.

OI !

I'll have you know though do I wear short pants now and then I do so only to allow my legs to fully enjoy the bracing weather we are currently experiencing. Any reference to lederhosen will be rebuked severely

[The Judge]

Originally Posted by Boneman

Secretly you wanted to go to boarding School, didn't you? All those comics with 'The Four Mary's' and so on. Admit it, you're just a teeny bit jealous......

How do you know about 'The Four Marys'? I adored those stories! Mind you I also adored my brother's comics with the mysterious and ageless Wilson and Sergeant Braddock the WWII ace and the guy whose name I forget, but he was a milkman so could only run with a milk crate in one hand. So when I wasn't fantasising about being a female Fat Owl of the Remove (removed from what?) I was navigating my way over occupied Europe and - in my spare time - discovering spies, running up fells, sometimes with a milk bottle or two, oh and taking the last three Australian wickets at Lords (slow left arm, speciality the chinaman in case you're interested and useful with the bat as well). God, but my childhood and early adolescence was a hectic affair!

And TEiN - any suggestion of the boys being nittie-pickie things, or (even worse) any allusion to the boys' own nittie-pickie things () was entirely accidental and I crave your forgiveness. I hereby promise that there shall be no reference whatsoever to lederhosen...
... oops...

J