Stalinism Alive and Well in Modern Russia

[Drachir]

Russians have learned well that the ability to rewrite history can control the way a people think about themselves. This is certainly the case in recent efforts by the Russian government to repackage the greatest mass murderer in world history as a brilliant statesman, superb general, and economic genius.
Russia rewriting Josef Stalin's legacy -- chicagotribune.com

[Dimentio]

Originally Posted by Drachir

Russians have learned well that the ability to rewrite history can control the way a people think about themselves. This is certainly the case in recent efforts by the Russian government to repackage the greatest mass murderer in world history as a brilliant statesman, superb general, and economic genius.
Russia rewriting Josef Stalin's legacy -- chicagotribune.com

Well, to be fair, a lot of Russians liked Stalin even under the Yeltsin years, when Stalin was denounced in Russian schools. He represented a strong father figure.

[Ursa major]

Have you a more direct link to that story, Drachir?

(I'm getting Topic Galleries (Beta).)

[Dimentio]

There are even Russians who appreciate both Stalin and Hitler at the same time...

[Drachir]

Originally Posted by Ursa major

Have you a more direct link to that story, Drachir?

(I'm getting Topic Galleries (Beta).)

Hope this helps, Bear. Different article same slant.
Vladimir Putin rewrites Russia's history books to promote patriotism - Europe, World - The Independent

[Dimentio]

Originally Posted by Drachir

Hope this helps, Bear. Different article same slant.
Vladimir Putin rewrites Russia's history books to promote patriotism - Europe, World - The Independent

From my conversations with Russians and my walks in Russian cyberspace, I must say that it is'nt surprising and shocking to me. A lot of Russians hate democracy which they identify with the Yelstin years of chaos, mismanagement and embarassment. The majority of these people hate dark-skinned foreigners, America and Jews as well, and tend to honour some sort of "superpowerism".

In fact, I could imagine that Putin is doing this to become more popular and legitimate in the eyes of the people, rather than trying to raise the people into rabid extremists.

In fact, mainstream communists and patriots tend to uphold Stalin. More extreme persons uphold Hitler. Others, and now we are speaking the extreme fringe, are seriously upholding Satan, Sauron or Cthulhu as their ideological leaders.

Crush navi ritual for example. Very silly, but yet very telling of the climate of modern Weimar Russia.

[Jardax]

I think the roots are a bit older. In the beginning of 19th century Russians lived in a terrible conditions. Serfdom was cancelled 100 years later than in other European countires. Mayority of Russians were uneducated and they lived in slavery conditions.
Communists offered them land, free education and free medicine. Of course many promises were not filled but hope is powerful and communists were the best liars in history.

Reality is Stalin was terrible general during 2ww. He caused many pointless kills but Russians were so numerous they crashed Germans by its numbers and Stalin was able to convince them it is him, who bring the victory.

I am from Czech rep. (former Czechoslovakia). In 1968 Russians attacked and occupied my country because we decided to leave their line and we applied some reforms. Entire nation tried to resist them. Without effect. Russian saw our hate at own eyes but their leaders told them they are here to help us and it was the fact for them. If we talk with them these day about these events, they still trus even AFTER 40 years - they did the right thing.

This is the living example of Russian mentality. Brainwashed nation living in a false hope. I guess many of Russian are lost in the new world, their leaders stopped to organize their life every day so they wish to recall those "easy times". How sad...

Thinking about Russians i see a similarity in USA. Many of US citizens never accept many of their wars was meanless and their politicians lied about real reasons.

One next reason for this situation can be these countries are too big. Many of Russians and even Amaricans never visited their capital city or any other country. As i live in Europe i visited 10+ countries, i can compare, i can be in my capital in 30 minutes, so my government has not so big chance to manipulate me because i can argue and i can create my own opinion....

[Sparrow]

Jardax ~Thinking about Russians i see a similarity in USA. Many of US citizens never accept many of their wars was meanless and their politicians lied about real reasons.

What are the chances you'd still be entertaining the Soviets today if it weren't for us ignorant Americans?.. you say many of our wars have been meaningless, which ones exactly?

Was Bill Clinton right to get us involved in the Bosnia-Herzegovina mess?


While my immediate roots are in Scotland and Canada, when I step one generation back on my mother's side it's the Ukraine. Her grandmother's family fled Russia during the Bolshevik Revolution and settled outside of Toronto Canada. The problem with the Russian people is that they were, and still are, peasants. That is to say the peasant mentality that has long since been eradicated from the modern world still finds home in mighty Russia... which is mighty no more.

Communism by it's very nature appeals to the peasant class, be they Russians or Chinese, and I think we here in the west underestimate the power it has over these people.

[Allegra]

Originally Posted by Dimentio

From my conversations with Russians and my walks in Russian cyberspace, I must say that it is'nt surprising and shocking to me. A lot of Russians hate democracy which they identify with the Yelstin years of chaos, mismanagement and embarassment. The majority of these people hate dark-skinned foreigners, America and Jews as well, and tend to honour some sort of "superpowerism".

In fact, I could imagine that Putin is doing this to become more popular and legitimate in the eyes of the people, rather than trying to raise the people into rabid extremists.

In fact, mainstream communists and patriots tend to uphold Stalin. More extreme persons uphold Hitler. Others, and now we are speaking the extreme fringe, are seriously upholding Satan, Sauron or Cthulhu as their ideological leaders.

Crush navi ritual for example. Very silly, but yet very telling of the climate of modern Weimar Russia.

Keen observation.

[Jardax]

To Sparrow:

USA defeated communism.

Answer 1:
You are mistaken if you trust USA defeated communism. I trust communistic leaders realized, there is no way to continue with that system because they saw a real troubles. So they switched to new one system, they sacrificed few members and took a new and even better posts in democracy. Putin is a great example.

Was Bill Clinton right to get us involved in the Bosnia-Herzegovina mess?

Answer 2:
No he was not. Western countries supplied weapons to former Yugoslavia. You picked the wrong side. Albanians living from kidnapping, terror and drug business. I am sure we eill hear bout them in future. The situation reminding me Afghanistan, it was USA who supplied Taliban with weapons, it was CIA who founded drug fields there. Now you hunting them down and you calling them terrorists and enemies... You forgot they are your product, you simply used them, abused them and left them. You just needed them against another enemy (Russia). I call this hypocrisis.

Croats were second nation you supported in Yougoslavia. You can check Youtube for phrase: The Worst Killers In History/ Croatian Nazis. Germans and Italians were not angels during 2ww but they were terrified of things Croatians did to Serbians those times.

I am just trying to tell USA decide without knowledge and manipulate people to trust they are world saviors....they are not in many cases.

While my immediate roots are in Scotland and Canada, when I step one generation back on my mother's side it's the Ukraine. Her grandmother's family fled Russia during the Bolshevik Revolution and settled outside of Toronto Canada. The problem with the Russian people is that they were, and still are, peasants. That is to say the peasant mentality that has long since been eradicated from the modern world still finds home in mighty Russia... which is mighty no more.

Peasant theory.

Answer 3:
I agree with your "peasant theory" yes, you are right. Situation in Russia is still same from middle age. There are few extrmly rich and powerful people and rest are...as you said...peasants. It was in feudalims, communism and even now.

Russia is out of business.

Answer 4:
I cannot agree Russia is not mighty Check history, everybody who underestimated Russia in history paid for his mistake. (German Order, Swedes, Napoleon, Hitler....).
Russia stoped to harrase with their nuclear weapons but this country still has potential.


PS: it is not easy to answer all these questions in a few sentences without connection to history facts and english is not my native language but i have to try .

[Drachir]

There were a number of reasons for the collapse of communism in Eastern Europe during the late 1980s and early 1990s.

One was the fact the the cost of the Cold War was one that the USSR could no longer afford. At times the USSR was spending up to 25% of its GNP on the military, a level it simply could not sustain without relegating its population to perpetual poverty. In this sense, Sparrow is right in that it was competition with the USA militarily and in space that drove the USSR to the edge.

Another was the fact that a 100% centrally planned economy simply does not work; or at least it does not work well enough to achieve the goals that it seeks. By the 1970s it was clearly evident to most senior members of the Soviet government (such as Gorbachev) that the Soviet economic system was so complicated and so inefficient that it could not achieve most of its goals.

Still another was the fact that the USSR had to constantly force its ideology on its Eastern European satellites. These countries (especially Poland) were constantly attempting to shift away from the heavy hand of Soviet influence.

And finally, and perhaps most importantly, Mikhail Gorbachev decided that the time had come to change the Soviet system. Having made this decision he was willing to let events in Eastern Europe take their course without the usual interference of the USSR. Unwittingly, he set in motion events that brought down the USSR as well.

The present day Russia is a mere shadow of its former self; having only half the population of the USSR and beset with levels of crime and corruption that leach billions out of the economy. Essentially, the modern Russia is a bizarre mixture of nuclear weapons and an outdated infrastructure that will take decades to improve. It is a country in which its birthrate is now falling below the replacement level and it is a great power only in the sense that it has thousands of nuclear devices; and it terms of its economic development every year it falls farther behind other nations such as China and India and at its current rate of growth there is little chance that it will ever match the USA.

I realize that this post is a very truncated and simplified version of events, but I am attempting to summarize what more knowledgeable writers have detailed in books requiring several hundred pages.

As for the mess in Yugoslavia; it has a great deal to do with the desire of the Serbs to preserve the Greater Serbian ideal. Mix that in with a good dose of ethnic and religious hatred and you have the worst of all possible scenarios. As for blaming the Croats for events in World War II it might be well to remember that this happened about seventy years ago. There are few Croats alive who participated in such events and there is little connection with the desire of modern Croatia to be independent. Certainly during the 1990s the Croats committed atrocities, but so did the Serbs. The breakup of Yugoslavia was a time when unreasoning hatred took over and neither side acted in a humane or rational manner.

This is now a long post and I am going to leave it there.

[Jardax]

I can agree with many arguments Drachir posted here.

Yes, it was very important signal for Soc. block when Gorbatchev told USSR will not involve anymore.

Concerning Yugoslavia: Ustasha regime is responsible for 1 000 000 kills during their reign. There are 8 mill of Serbs today. If some USA nation kills 40 millions of other USA civilians it will not be forgotten even after 70years.

I am just trying to tell, picking a side in that conflict and telling other side is that bad is not honest because all sides were guilty. I cannot agree with that common picture of evil Serbs created by USA.

It can be good to hear all sides because truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

So who is responsible for Yugoslavia crisis?
1. Local leaders (from all Yugoslavian sides) who abused hate to reach personal advantages.
2. Europe - EU was not able to find a good peaceful solution.
3. USA - they picked one side what can cause only one thing - next hate in future because one day someone can use this as argument to strike back.

[J-WO]

Originally Posted by Drachir

Another was the fact that a 100% centrally planned economy simply does not work; or at least it does not work well enough to achieve the goals that it seeks.

It certainly doesn't work in an arms race, that's for sure. Whereas a free market economy is gonna have a whale of a time.

Another factor, one often overlooked I think, is that the USSR was host to a good chunk of the 2nd world war and consequently had to do a lot of cleaning up after, in both a literal and economic sense. America, on the other hand, finished the war relatively unscathed, with Pearl Harbor the only attack on sovereign territory.

In that respect, at least, the cold war didn't begin with a level playing field.

[Ursa major]

There are no level playing fields, so it's pointless basing anything on them. People and countries have to work with what they've got and get on with it (which is not me arguing for no aid, by the way). Countries that do this (with more or less outside aid) have prospered; I'm thinking particularly of South Korea, which managed to be devasted a decade after WWII but had, in 2008 (according to Wiki), the 32nd highest GDP** per head. (And one suspects that South Korea has devoted quite a bit of its income on defence ever since the end of the Korean War.)


As to looking further back in history for justifications, it's mostly pointless. (What's that phrase? "The Past is another country; they do things differently there.") It is particularly pointless when one group takes over a country for a short(-ish) period and then devotes itself to committing atrocities (agianst their own, or other countries', citizens). Letting off someone alive (and who has fresh blood dripping off their hands) because there was someone like them in a neighbouring country more than half a century ago helps no-one; except, of course, today's mass murderers.


** - EDIT: That's PPP, not nominal.

[J-WO]

Originally Posted by Ursa major

There are no level playing fields, so it's pointless basing anything on them.
** - EDIT: That's PPP, not nominal.

I wish someone would have said that at Copenhagen the other day.