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Old 24th August 2007, 05:00 PM   #91 (permalink)
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Re: What period in history would you have loved to go back and see for yourself

What are you talking about? The Pope called for the crusade because the emperor of Byzantium finally swallowed his pride and asked for help against the muslim invaders.

As to not having any legitimate claim, the muslims were razing monasteries, defacing churches, killing and forcibly converting Christians and jews in the territories they conquered.

A lot of people believe that the Crusaders went on the Crusade in order to plunder. But recent research shows that many sold much, if not all of their land and other property, in order to afford the journey in the first place.

Your knowledge seems outdated. I suggest these two books:

Amazon.com: First Crusade and the Idea of Crusading: Books: Jonathan Riley-Smith
Amazon.com: The Politically Incorrect Guide(tm) to Islam (and the Crusades) (Politically Incorrect Guides): Books: Robert Spencer
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Old 25th August 2007, 11:31 AM   #92 (permalink)
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Re: What period in history would you have loved to go back and see for yourself

The crusades raped, robbed and pillaged through what is eastern Europe - exterminating Jewish communities on the way. The christian states also were doing force conversions, defacing mosques, burning people at the stake for having a different take on Christianity - just look at the treatment handed out to the Cathars in France.
The crusades on arrival in Jerusalem promptly killed every single Moslem and Jew regardless of age or gender.
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Old 25th August 2007, 05:40 PM   #93 (permalink)
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Re: What period in history would you have loved to go back and see for yourself

It is certainly true that excessive acts have been committed by misguided men, but the opposite is true as well. Like catholic priests hiding Jews from overzealous German crusaders in the First Crusade.

Anyway, If it wasn't for the crusades keeping back the muslim aggressors we wouldn't have free speech, democracy, freedom of religion, individualism, etc.

We'd all be living in some sharia law country where the legal age to marry a girl is 9 years old (like it is the law in present day Iran), or where the possession of a Torah or Bible is punished with a lengthy jail term (like in present day Saudi Arabia), or where saying Mohammed is not the true prophet is punishable by death or a lifetime in prison (like in present day Pakistan)
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Old 26th August 2007, 02:24 PM   #94 (permalink)
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Re: What period in history would you have loved to go back and see for yourself

Revelation not all Moslem leaders were or are like that. The Ottoman Turks, Saladin etc were exceedingly enlighted and allowed freedom of worship for all creeds. There is only 2 Christian states in this time period who is even close and that was Byzantium and Roger's Sicily. And the Fourth Crusade actually physically removed the Byzantium bulwark against Islamic expansion when it sacked Constantinople, the capital city of a Christian Empire and effectively sealed its fate.
The Spanish intoduced forced conversions on one of the most enlighted molsem states -Granda - they forcibily converted all Jews and Moslems on the pain of death. Many choose death.Then a few years later introduced the Inquisition to torture and murder those who had converted, thus resulting in the ethnic cleansing of Spain when all those who were Jewish, Moslem or had converted to Islam were removed from the land of their Birth.
The Christian states were no more tolerant to each other; you only have to look at the wars of religion over Catholism and Protestantism which have continued up until the present day.
The irony of History is that we were the intolerant states and now it has been reversed. But then we supported these states as they were anti-communist and could provide us with OIL. We encouraged General Zia to overthrow and murder Pakistan's democratic elected leader. He introduced the islamic fundamentalism we see today, but it was OK because he was anti-Russian. Remember when the Russians invaded Afghanistan we armed and trained the Talibian. Many of the weapons they use today to Kill NATO forces in Afghanistan we gave to them.
In the words of one wise man- "Remove the Mote from your own eye, before complaining about the splinter in your neighbours."
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Old 26th August 2007, 04:14 PM   #95 (permalink)
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Re: What period in history would you have loved to go back and see for yourself

LoL @ Saladin. Did you watch "Kingdom of Heaven" yesterday or what?

You know you're talking to an expert when his views are based on Hollywood movies.

As to Moorish Spain, read some Bernard Lewis. He's considered to be the foremost expert on the period, and he'll tell you something that will surprise the heck out of you.

And as to who introduced islamic fundamentalism, well the prophet mohammed did! If you do some research into his life, you'll find that he

1. Led armies
2. Robbed caravans
3. Ordered assisinations
4. Ordered executions
5. Raped slaves/captives
6. Raped his 9 year old wife

And millions of people name their male child after this man!

There are hundreds of suras in the Koran that tell muslims to kill/enslave/convert/lie to/backstab/subdue non-muslims. Google them if you like, because that's the lines Osama Bin Laden quotes in every one of his videos.
Guess who wrote the Koran? The prophet mohammed!

So no, no pakistani introduced islamic fundamentalism. In islam, fundamentalism is built-in.

Read a book. I suggest one of the two I posted above.
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Old 26th August 2007, 05:24 PM   #96 (permalink)
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Re: What period in history would you have loved to go back and see for yourself

There were good men on both sides, and from what I read of Saladin, he was one of them.

And Andyn didn't mean that the Pakastani General Zia introduced fundamentalist Islam as a new thing. He only meant that General Zia introduced it to that particular state creating the haven for terrorism that now exists there.

The crusades are an awful time period, but you cannot judge both sides with blanket statements. Saladin was a good man by every account I've come across.

Islam committed atrocities before the crusades began and after, but the christians marauded through the holy land with God on their side putting men, women, and children to the sword.

That was the way of it then. The only difference is that one group grew out of it, the other still hasn't.
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Old 26th August 2007, 05:33 PM   #97 (permalink)
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Re: What period in history would you have loved to go back and see for yourself

Let's watch some of the tone, folks. Arguing the points is fine, but avoid casting personal aspersions....

Marvolo: this was not addressed to you or your post, which appeared while I was entering mine, but to some of the things that have been said above....
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Old 26th August 2007, 06:24 PM   #98 (permalink)
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Re: What period in history would you have loved to go back and see for yourself

So christians marauded through the holy land with God on their side putting men, women, and children to the sword?

Here's something that will blow your mind: Three hundred years before the crusades the Middle East was predominantly Christian/Jewish/Zoroastrian.

So how did islam spread so fast through the middle east in the first place? With missionaries preaching the word of allah? No, it was spread with the sword. With bloody conquest, rape, enslavement and forced conversions, their prophet taking part in the action.

The blood spilled by crusaders was a drop in the sea when compared with the muslim zealots shouting ALLAHU ACKBAR (PRAISE TO ALLAH) as they killed or enslaved their non-muslim neighbors over hundreds of years in the Middle east.

And the scariest part is this is still going on in the Middle East every day.
Here's one of many examples:
14 Year Old Assyrian Boy Decapitated By Muslim Group
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Old 26th August 2007, 07:35 PM   #99 (permalink)
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Re: What period in history would you have loved to go back and see for yourself

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So how did islam spread so fast through the middle east in the first place? With missionaries preaching the word of allah? No, it was spread with the sword. With bloody conquest, rape, enslavement and forced conversions, their prophet taking part in the action.
Because the Byzantine Empire and Persian Empire had effectively exhausted one another, creating a huge power vacuum neither had the resources to push back into.

Islam did not need to conquer by the sword, because the areas they took were effectively leaderless and without direction as the great powers either side grew back.

Also, before you attempt to take the moral high ground on marriage on Mohammed's time, I'd respectfully suggest you research how old Mary was before she was supposed to have conceived Jesus - the conservative view is no older than 14. Following your example invective, the counter claim that either Joseph or the Christian God is a statutory rapist would be logical conclusions - and just as full of bull.

I'd suggest reading some history books on the Middle East from accredited historical scholars, not hate lit from Christian fundamentalists.

I'd also suggest you keep the hate off chronicles as well. Trying to find extreme examples to demonise any religion is not welcome here.

We don't allow people to use the IRA, US foreign policy, or Uganda's God's Army to demonise all Christians. Therefore I'm not going to allow the same for Islam.
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Old 26th August 2007, 08:24 PM   #100 (permalink)
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Re: What period in history would you have loved to go back and see for yourself

Well said Brian. Revelation you need to read a little more. The Crusades were never this great Romantic drive to liberate the middle East from the perils of Islam. In Fact Islam had occupied the so called Holy Land for 350 years or more and no one in Christedom was that bothered. I will recommend a couple of Books for you-Firstly read John Julius Norwichs masterful account of the History of the Byzantine Empire. In this 3 volume history you will get the Greek Orthodox view of the Crusades and that is just as disparaging of them as any Islamic writer.
You will read how both the Emperor's Alexi and Manual Commeni struggled to keep their so called brothers of the faith from ripping their own country apart. Then we have the third crusade where Richard 1st invaded Cyprus and took it by force from the Christian Byzantines before marching into Palestine and let us not mention how he massacared all his unarmed prisoners after the battle of Acre. Despite all of this Saladin did not seek brutal revenge, but an understanding with his enemy. In fact our view of Saladin comes from the English Chroniclers who marched with Richard the Lionheart at the time.
Then you can read about the piratical 4th Crusade which sacked Constantinople, on behalf of the Venetian Doge who wnated to remove Byzantium as it was a trade rival to Venice's domination of Mediterranen trade.
Then read either Stephen Runiceman or Zoe Oldenbourg excellent histories of the crusades. Then read Eric Christansens account of the Northern Crusades and all the murder rape and pillaging that was done in God's name. And finally read Stephrn O'Shea's moving account of the Albigensian crusade and the destruction of the Cathars - a pacifist brand of Christianity embracing tolerance and poverty.
Read from a variety of sources and you will gain a greater understanding.

Last edited by andyn; 26th August 2007 at 08:38 PM.
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Old 27th August 2007, 02:34 PM   #101 (permalink)
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Re: What period in history would you have loved to go back and see for yourself

Revelation -- such early marriages were (and in some places still are) quite traditional and accepted. We don't have to agree with them, may feel they're wrong... but it's their culture, not ours. We wouldn't want them dictating to us on how we handle ours, either. Don't forget, too, that in the U.S., not that long ago, it was quite legal to marry 12-year-olds and, in some states, girls even younger (this last with their parents' consent).

As for the Bible not saying to kill off people of other faiths... where on earth do you get that? The Bible is full of such things! Nearly everywhere the Jews went, this ended up being the case, from Canaan on. Just because their god told them to do so, does not make it one bit different... in fact, it's very much the same.

If you look through your Bible without preconceptions, you'll find it is every bit as violent as any other holy book can be... New Testament not excluded (though it is somewhat milder there than the Old). Such religions, with their origins in such early times, almost invariably tend to be divisive by nature. After all, each thinks they have divine revelation to guide them, and the others are wrong to a lesser or, in many cases, greater degree.

The contemporary accounts of the Crusades are full of brutality on both sides; and Christians throughout history have perpetrated barbarous acts against those not of their creed, always backing it with scriptural authority. Look into the origins and history of the Inquisition; read the Malleus Maleficarum; read the sermons of the New England Divines, or Mather's Magnalia Christi Americana or Wonders of the Invisible World. These are all chock-full of biblical support for such actions. One may argue that "Suffer thou not a witch to live" is a bad English translation from the original (which would more closely be translated "necromancer", perhaps), but it does condone the killing of those who commune with the dead... a practice of many religions in history. There is also the passage which tells how, should anyone -- your friend, your wife, your children, seduce you from your worship of God, then your hand should strike the first blow, they are to be killed, taken out and stoned to death. The number of such passages is frankly quite staggering. And to say that "That was the Old Testament, not the New" is both disingenuous and undermines the very basis of the New Testament and the New Covenant Christ's birth, death, and resurrection was intended to create... not to mention the entire support of St. Paul's teachings.

Before going hammer and tongs after any other religion, I'd strongly suggest you re-read the Bible carefully, thoughtfully, and critically... look at it anew, as it were. You'll find that, on the subject of violence to one's fellow human beings, there's precious little difference between it and either of the other two religions which sprang from the same common source.... None of the three has the market cornered on either virtue or villainy....
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Old 27th August 2007, 04:46 PM   #102 (permalink)
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Re: What period in history would you have loved to go back and see for yourself

So..my post was deleted.

Why was I censored?

What's the matter, can't find anything to say so you decide to pretend like it never happened?
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Old 27th August 2007, 04:56 PM   #103 (permalink)
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Re: What period in history would you have loved to go back and see for yourself

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So..my post was deleted.

Why was I censored?

What's the matter, can't find anything to say so you decide to pretend like it never happened?
No, simply that part of the material there either came seriously close, or stepped over the boundaries. Remember, this is a family-friendly site, so please keep that in mind when posting.

As for some of the other comments... I'd suggest you pull back a bit, as you've become not only heated, but personally derogatory with some of your comments; something quite frowned on here. It might be much better if you came back with a cooler response to continue the debate.

On posting the biblical citations... Aside from the fact I did cite one of the more famous ("Thou shalt not suffer a witch", etc., which comes from the Christian Bible), I'd only just read your post and not had a moment to look up the correct citations for the others that come to mind.
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Old 27th August 2007, 05:07 PM   #104 (permalink)
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Re: What period in history would you have loved to go back and see for yourself

Quote:
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So..my post was deleted.

Why was I censored?

What's the matter, can't find anything to say so you decide to pretend like it never happened?
It wasn't actually deleted - it actually got caught by the anti-spam filters for some reason, possibly because you were hotlinking to an image.

However, with that in mind I have removed both that post and the one before, and will take this up via PM.
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Old 14th September 2007, 08:36 AM   #105 (permalink)
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Re: What period in history would you have loved to go back and see for yourself

Quote:
1. Led armies
2. Robbed caravans
3. Ordered assisinations
4. Ordered executions
5. Raped slaves/captives
6. Raped his 9 year old wife
Sounds like any proper statesman back then.

As for raping his 9 year old wife - the fact that she was 9 would make it rape by our standards no matter how it went down. However, we cannot apply our standards to the realities of 1500 years ago.

The spread of Islam was a violent process, and so was the spread of Christianity throughout Europe. The norwegian national anthem still sings and so he painted the cross in blood across the land (link) - speaking of Olaf the Holy who brought us Christianity. It's what happened, and it's how Christianity defeated the old religions of Europe: by the sword.

Christianity has a long history of prosecution against other religions or of people with different denominations rather than the mainstream Church. See the Jews, Protestants, etc. Islam does have blood on its hands, but promoted a much more lenient and pragmatic relationship towards peoples of differing faiths.

Accept the realities of history, please. And read more than two books, it'll give you a far more balanced version of events.
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