On Creating Imaginary Worlds: Fantasy

[huiru]

some sort of catastrophe or anything else your imagination can conjure; just make it believable.

[chrispenycate]

Hello? Um, huiru, I don't want to be difficult, but could you reference the questions you're answering when responding to a lot of different subjects, please; I've no doubt it's very clear to you where the answers belong, but not the rest of us.

Is a desert to be defined by rainfall, or humidity? Or mere lack of vegetation? The Kalahari goes right down to the beach, so, despite almost total lack of precipitation, gains moisture from sea mist condensing as dew, so doesn't suffer from the desiccation effect, and a number of species (including Homo Sapiens) succeed in surviving there.

But I'd say that statistically it would be unlikely to have a planet with a relatively large land mass that didn't have some surface in rain shadow, some area which local climatic effects deprived of water. Unless, this being a fantasy, some benevolent deity took a hand. The Sahara actually gets enough rainfall that it is borderline rated as a desert at all, but it all runs off down the wadis; if there were soil, and vegetation firstly there'd be yet more rain, and secondly, the water wouldn't just disappear; it seems probable that goats, human-protected against predators, are a large part if not the majority of it's desertification, and the rapidness (in geological terms) of the operation explains why so few species are adapted to the conditions, relative to more 'natural' dry areas, like Arizona or the Gobi. Thus desert can be encouraged or countered by technological intelligence (yes, I do consider herding and irrigation as technologies; they were more revolutionary than petrochemistry or microelectronics in their way, and it's only because they've been around so long that we can't see how much they changed things).

[petethepirate]

hi all, you may have read my post concerning lizardmen. i've written a (very rough) brief
description of the race(and stuff).
so, here it is! (fanfare)
Gok’tar
Lizardmen – humanoid lizards
Ectothermic (cold-blooded)

The Gok’tar are six to seven feet tall and Bipedal
but they can run on all fours for speed and climbing purposes.
Thick scales cover their backs, shoulders and the front of their legs.
These are usually dark green but can be other colours such as brown and rarely black.
Their skin is usually a lighter shade of the scale’s colour. this again is thick.
They are a warlike race and are well adapted for guerrilla warfare.

The Gok’tar have a tribal culture. Each tribe is about 100 strong
and led by a chieftain.
Each tribe also includes a warrior sect, made up of the tribes strongest
fighters. This is called the Qua huq.

The best artisans join what is known as the Cuaq Tli, or great forge.
But these can also act as a militia.

In every Gok’tar village there is a single sacred place,
Be it a patch of ground or a small temple where all Gok’tar
gather at the crack of dawn? to sun themselves and give offerings
to the sun god. These services are held by the mysterious and
reclusive priests.
These priests, or Tenai as they are usually known, are highly religious,
And work to uncover the truth about the Gok’tar’s past.

its very rough.

capt'n pete. (and stuff)

[ScrambleEggHead]

Originally Posted by petethepirate

Gok’tar
Lizardmen – humanoid lizards
Ectothermic (cold-blooded)

The Gok’tar are six to seven feet tall and Bipedal...

They are a warlike race and are well adapted for guerrilla warfare.

The Gok’tar have a tribal culture. Each tribe is about 100 strong
and led by a chieftain.

Each tribe also includes a warrior sect, made up of the tribes strongest
fighters. This is called the Qua huq.

The best artisans join what is known as the Cuaq Tli, or great forge.
But these can also act as a militia.

In every Gok’tar village there is a single sacred place,
Be it a patch of ground or a small temple where all Gok’tar
gather at the crack of dawn?

... to sun themselves and give offerings
to the sun god. These services are held by the mysterious and
reclusive priests.

These priests, or Tenai as they are usually known, are highly religious,
And work to uncover the truth about the Gok’tar’s past.

its very rough.

capt'n pete. (and stuff)

This sounds like Fantasy more than SF. (Is that your intention?) It always strikes me as enigmatic when a race is both religious and aggressive. (But Earth's history has plenty of examples). So, you've created the race. - where do they live? What does the landscape look like? Can you give more specific details regarding their biological makeup? (Do they have blood, and nervous systems?) Just how sentient are they? What do they eat? What is their social heirarchy? (Are the priests in a position of power, or are they more like Druids?) Are there competing races? Is there a story line?

[Entropic Hourglass]

How do I logically display a anarchical society?

[chrispenycate]

There is no reason why anarchy should lack logic. It lacks command structure, certainly (that's what it means) and has no laws (or at least no way of enforcing them, which, with humans, comes to the same thing) but this does not oblige a sort of wild west survival if the fastest, most vicious and most selfish. And even in the marshal-free wooly west there were many communities that co-operated, seeing that as their optimal survival strategy.

A stable anarchy probably couldn't survive a high population density, and I think there would have to be parental authority for at least the earlier years of a child's life (yes, spoils the aesthetic purity of the concept, but I can't see any way round it) but it could be totally logical, everyone chipping in for enlightened self interest…

Try Eric Frank Russell's "Gands", from "The great Explosion". Anarchists, with no greater punishment tan social shunning, but in no way antisocial… Yeah, real humans probably would never be that selfless (except in emergencies), but you asked how to write them.

[hopewrites]

i have spent most of today reading things about nuclear physics i dont understand trying to find a plausible time line for my post-apocalyptic world. while my research has not been fruitless and has given me the science to back up decisions i had already made about my fantasy. i still dont have a general time line for the per-start to my world.
the reason this is important is that the narrator will be collecting myths and legends about his world and i need to know how much time i have to distort the reality i am creating, as well as what that reality was.

my question then is; what time frame is most plausible for earth to have recovered to a mostly tropical state from an activation of MAD nuclear war where all major metropoliss (metropoli?) were reduced to rubble?

ie i destroyed the world we now know so that little remains of it but myth and legend. i have in place a fictional safety net to preserve two sets of humanity (and the safety net) so there will be three perspectives to tell my myths and legends from. but i would like to know about how long it would take earth to "recover" from what i did to it so i know how many generations have told these stories; so that i know how well believed they are likely to be.

thank you in advance for your advice.

[chrispenycate]

It rather depends on how enthusiastic the conflict was. A no holds barred, plutonium powder in the jet streams and ocean currents, radioactive cobalt pulverised over most of the land surface, doomsday weapons and suborbital delivery, you could be expecting two to two and a half thousand years before the planet had a breathable (by mammals) atmosphere again, assuming enough species survived to build a workable ecology. A bit excessive, that, so we'll probably leave that one out.

A more limited Armageddon (interesting concept there) might have regions where the surface was inhabitable after a century or so, even if the best places to put cities were still glowing a thousand years later. But that would almost guarantee that some town libraries, some village communities less dependent on big civilisation, would have managed to keep a continuity of information, just by random statistical chance, so I think that is out for your plot.

So, I think you need all land-living vertebrates eliminated, and at least 85% of vegetation. Humans survive in shelters (some), a few burrowing creatures, some deep sea animals. Plants die massively, but any that survive have few or no predators and lots of compost; population explosions, speciation, adapting to new niches; the standard effect of an extinction effect. Fast breeding, fast dying, and massive mutation; it'll be quicker than after the dinosaur killer. Burrowing creatures and insects will do the same as soon as the plants have generated enough new oxygen, and bacteria will go on as they always have, mutating faster than they can be killed.

I'd give it 800 to 1000 years before humans start developing larger groups, and exploring. Most high tech will have decayed by then, along with all the knowledge in books (not that the books couldn't have lasted that long, but the stimulus to save them was inadequate. A life expectancy of maybe 25, 30 years before cancer or inbred recessive diseases kill them. Hunter/gatherers (I don't know how they survived the shelter centuries, but I'll bet it's fallen into ruin; and underground is not convenient for maintaining skills like agriculture or blacksmithery. Good for conversation skills, though). Probably cave dwellers (stay below as much as possible, minimise the exposure), possibly cannibals.

It took our ancestors u hundred thousand years to grow out of this, so, depending on how far you want their society developed, you can choose how many generations yo want. Minimum 150, maximum lots.

[hopewrites]

Thank you, that was helpful information. I am undecided if the people who save most of Humanity will take their books as well. I am thinking not because they wont understand the significance of what they would be saving. Its done on a whim at first and discovery of a particular human trait keeps them from repenting the decision. So that group of humans is spared the depravity of having to survive the aftermath that would reshape Earth, the Wild Humans would of course have to suffer through and because of their disseparate lives create an interesting racial-diversity twist for me to exploit.
The occasional surviving library is not a bad idea, though it would be a bit like me finding a long forgotten library preserved from a dead language. As far as I have thought about it languages would be preserved in two ways only. The survivors would be reduced beyond reading and writing to day to day survival and only an oral tradition would survive, tribal and region dependent. The rest of humanity would retain reading and writing skills, but only in the language of the saving race.

[Primitius]

What sort of calendar might arise from a civilization developing under a sky with six massive, distinctive moons? I have envisioned a system where the passing of time is perhaps marked by certain reoccurring moon-alignments, but I am having some trouble figuring out how this might work, particularly in the way a system like that would correspond to other elements like the seasons, or if it even needs to.

Anyone care to throw some interesting ideas at me, as I feel my lack of knowledge on the intricacies of calendars (despite some cursory research) is holding me back.

[Venusian Broon]

Re: Six moon world.

How much of a fantasy are you making your world? i.e. do you really care if your moon/planet system is really possible - or are you not bothered -and just interested in constructing a type of calender with a cool sky!

If its the former, then you'll have to think carefully about how to construct your system - if these moons are indeed massive and for example add up to mass of the planet then I'd imagine it be an extremely chaotic system (in fact it should really all reduce to 1 or 2 bodies, either through ejection or collision, very quickly.) Think of Saturn - it has an extremely complex moon and ring system, but the main body is extremely massive compared to all the other bits and kinda regulates it all as a mini-solar system - these tiny moons have neglible impact on the planet of this size.

If the 6 moons are close in mass to the parent they will have a big impact on the seasons and tilt of the planet - but I'd make an educated guess that a 'big 6' system with a small parent planet is likely to have the planet spinning all over the place chaotically - which is kinda bad for vegetation, hence all other life. Although you could have a world of very fast growth hardy vegetation when the conditions are right and migratory animals I suppose...(although that'll also depend on land and sea masses - land animals could be unlucky and trapped in deep winter if you don't have enough land...)

It's easy enough to estimate, if you have relative masses and orbital time periods, where the moons should sit orbiting the planet- but you'd have to put all the moons really far out and distant from each other to make it plausible (But then they are easier 'prey' to gravitational tugs from other objects - so why are they even orbiting the planet in the first place!), my feeling is that you'd be describing an unstable random system. And by definition such a system can't have a calender!

On the other hand if your approach is the latter, then ignore all my crap above and I'd build heirarchies of months based on the orbital periods, perhaps paying attention when they line up (but there will be loads of cominbinations of 2,3,4,5 and 6 moon alignments - I can't figure quite out the maths, but we must be talking about close to a thousand), which again looking from the viewpoint of realism, will also have a big influence on mixing up loads of high and low tides randomly, giving rise to an interesting coastline (which btw can also depend on whether they are going against or with the stars gravity.) Throw in the fact that such a busy system will have plenty of solar and lunar eclipses for the locals to wonder at and measure too. Oh and lunar eclipses caused by the moons on each other. I think that's enough for the moment!

[Gumboot]

Originally Posted by Primitius

What sort of calendar might arise from a civilization developing under a sky with six massive, distinctive moons? I have envisioned a system where the passing of time is perhaps marked by certain reoccurring moon-alignments, but I am having some trouble figuring out how this might work, particularly in the way a system like that would correspond to other elements like the seasons, or if it even needs to.

Anyone care to throw some interesting ideas at me, as I feel my lack of knowledge on the intricacies of calendars (despite some cursory research) is holding me back.

Putting aside any scientific issues with having six "massive" moons orbiting a planet, it would really come down to how the moons moved, and how the seasons played out. Calendars originally were created to mark celestial movements, so you need to work out your celestial movements first, then move on from there. Any orbiting object is going to go through the same cycle as our moon, as it rotates around the planet, so you've got your "month" to begin with (however long their orbit takes), which in this case is six distinct "months" which might overlap, or anything else. Generally if you have multiple moons they're going to be in different orbits which means the closer ones moving faster, and the further away ones moving slower, with them all sometimes lining up.

Presuming your planet has an axial tilt, it's also going to have seasons as it orbits its star, so between your six-series of "months" and your single procession of "seasons" that really gives you your calendar year, as a building block.

[DthenB]

On a fantasy world with six moons, the calendar would be even more socially and culturally relevant and prevalent than it for us. Think of how many interactions fantasy concepts have with just one moon.

With six moons, some would have longer and erratic orbits, meaning that each individual night would have a different collection of lunar bodies at different points in the sky. The combination of moons could indicate fluctuations in mystical energies, or affect supernatural creatures in different ways. Every combination and position of the moons could symbolize something to this culture. Astronomers would be highly advanced in their studies and revered by the populace. Fortune tellers could predict the future by the movements of the moons, and a child's destiny could be foretold by the formations of moons it was born under.

Some nights would have all six moons in the sky, and night would be bright as day for weeks on end, a wonderful time to be a farmer. Other rare times there could be no moons, leaving the night pitch black and the domain of assassins and dark magicians.

The moons could affect werewolves' transformations, increasing the strength of the beast when more moons are full. Or each moon could correspond to a different were-creature, meaning up to six full moons. Some moons could be closer and rotate the Earth faster, meaning more instances of a full moon per month.

Perhaps the lunar months would just be based off the cycles of the largest or the most reliable moon. Regardless of how it is set up, the symbolism and direct effect of six moons would greatly increase the importance of calendars and astronomers in the culture that lives beneath them.

[Stephen4444]

I have been working on this scenario:

In a war between two star systems, one uses the others star as a weapon to destroy the opponent’s planet.
I think you can cause a large solar flare that engulfs the planet. In addition this would blow the planet’s atmosphere away?

My question is:

1) Do you think after the event the planet would regenerate an atmosphere (say in a thousand years or so?)

2) Do you think that a planet (like earth) would turn into a desert planet?

3) Do you think life could survive that (roaches, spiders, scorpions, small creatures)

4) Could the radiation cause mutation?


In my world intelligent scorpions survive (Mutated) and feed on others that survive... but could anything survive that?(Atmosphere blown away)

[chrispenycate]

Total loss of atmosphere? I doubt very much whether anything multicellular could make the transition; you're looking at starting again from bacteria. Many millions of years. Regenerating an atmosphere from outgassing, recuperating a lot of the old atmosphere that is still within the gravitational influence of the planet (some will be blown away by solar wind and light pressure, but a lot will just be blown into space, maintaining the orbital balance it had when the planet was holding it; gas obeys Newton's laws, too. So you'll get a torus of atmosphere, hydrosphere {largely in ice crystals} and general junk, mostly small stuff – dust, birds, aeroplanes – that can be carried by the escaping air, round the sun, gradually being swept up by the planet. I won't add up to anything like the original, but it'll only take a century or so.

Mutations? Massive. It's not a few cm of rock that are going to shield the eggs from a particle storm like that (one which is strong enough to strip the atmosphere off. You could easily go a little less enthusiastic and still wipe out all your vertebrates, but where's the fun in that?) Suggestion; your survival points are going to be at the polar winter point, where no direct sunlight arrives, and in the depths of the ocean; sure, you're boiling off surface layers, but the vaporisation itself cools things and currents tend to go sideways; it'll take time for the thermal shock wave to reach the abyss. And we hope the flare doesn't continue that long. Any arthropod in the polar regions is trained in hibernation, and is an R strategist, adapted for recolonisation, and their eggs, along with the plant seeds and bacterial spores essential for establishing an ecology, are used to surviving long periods before clement conditions set in (scorpions aren't; better to base your species on something like mosquitoes or midges)

Your deep sea species are going to need that mutation; suddenly they are in a much energy-richer environment, with almost no competition for resources. Perfect for diversification and speciation. Shrimps, crabs; all right, no poison stinger, but quite ready to help clean up the corpses of all these larger beasts that have been eating them all these millions of years. More worrying are the algae; they will have been in the upper layers of the ocean, the ones boiled off and quite largely in space. If any are left they'll colonise like wildfire, but they've got no reason to be in the lightless depths, and most of them concentrate on vegetative reproduction, not sexual which might produce spores with a better survival hope.

Now, if they were 'opponents', it holds that the original inhabitants of this planet had space travel, no? Would they not have set up self-sufficient bases on moons, or free-space habitats, with entire stable (if limited) ecologies (hydroponics, algae tanks with fish in them, sewage recycling)? and, seeing the devastation left by the attacks, wouldn't you try and parachute small samples of life back, even if it was clear you'd never see the results?

I'm interested in how you intend to generate that solar flare. I did it with an unbalanced Bussard interstellar ramjet (much smaller flare), Clarke and Baxter by dropping a gas giant planet into it; the amount of energy needed to upset a star is stupendous.