Valyrian blood

[I, Brian]

So Raven brought up the interesting subject that Jon's hair and eyes might indicate that he had Valyrian blood.

However, in terms of the story, the Starks, and Daenerys, what might this imply?

[Culhwch]

I think what Raven is getting at is that Jon's hair and eye colour (Stark brown and brown, I believe) might not necessarily point to his Valyrian heritage if Rhaegar was his father. Most Targaryens are silver haired and violet eyed, though Raven points out that Baelor Breakspear, from 'The Hedge Knight' short story, doesn't have the Targaryen colouring - thus showing Targaryen characteristics aren't always dominant.

I disagree - I think Jon's appearance proves he isn't Rhaegar's son. The Stark colouring seems far more recessive - only one in five of Ned's trueborn children share his traits, while Baelor is one amongst many Targaryens we know to display the silver and violet. If Rhaegar and Lyanna were to be Jon's parents, I'd say it would be far more likely he'd take after the Targaryens than the Starks. I believe Rhaegar's daughter with Elia of Dorne (Rhaenys?) is described somewhere as having silver hair, though I could be wrong.

Thus Jon is not Rhaegar's son. Possibly Lyanna's, but I'm still thinking Ned's.

[hodor]

Actually the Targeryan gene dominance throughout time has been mainly due to their inbreeding. Hard to have another predominant gene when you do not marry outside of the house. I believe Rhaegar was one of the first to have done this (aside from Dany that is).

[Culhwch]

Daeron II married a Dornish princess, though he was Aerys's great great great grandfather. I hadn't forgotten the inbreeding - but I still think Rhaegar's trueborn children (to Elia) had the Targaryen colouring - I'm rereading the series right now, so I'll try and find concrete evidence. I still think it's a stretch to say a child in the direct Targaryen line wouldn't show any Targaryen characteristics at all and would be totally Stark.

After all, Jon is surrounded by people who had more than likely seen the Targaryen's a time or two - Catelyn (maybe), Ser Rodrik, Maester Luwin, Jeor Mormont, Donal Noye, Jaime Lannister and King Robert when he was at Winterfell (though I admit neither may have laid eyes on or paid any attention to Jon when there) - there's probably more - yet none ever saw the slightest resemblance and mentioned it? I'll clarify that with a 'that we know off', admitting that GRRM's way of telling the story PoV style could possibly exclude any such recognition from our knowledge. But I still find it very unlikely Jon is a Targaryen by Rhaegar.

[jnr_turtle]

Originally Posted by Culhwch

I still think it's a stretch to say a child in the direct Targaryen line wouldn't show any Targaryen characteristics at all and would be totally Stark.

After all, Jon is surrounded by people who had more than likely seen the Targaryen's a time or two - Catelyn (maybe), Ser Rodrik, Maester Luwin, Jeor Mormont, Donal Noye, Jaime Lannister and King Robert when he was at Winterfell (though I admit neither may have laid eyes on or paid any attention to Jon when there) - there's probably more - yet none ever saw the slightest resemblance and mentioned it? I'll clarify that with a 'that we know off', admitting that GRRM's way of telling the story PoV style could possibly exclude any such recognition from our knowledge. But I still find it very unlikely Jon is a Targaryen by Rhaegar.

If you don't think that Jon is a Targaryen by Rhaegar, what's your take on Ned's promise to Lyanna?

And what exactly do we know about Targaryen characteristics other than the purple eyes and silver hair?

Since Starks would be rather famous for their honour (well Ned at least) who would think that Ned was lying if he claimed Jon as his own? So maybe there are some Targaryen characteristics although perhaps hidden enough for anyone who might've seen Rhaegar to have dismissed it. After all, if it wasn't Rhaegar/Lyanna's son, then the next choices would be Ned by either Wylla or Ashara Dayne.

The Daynes were close to the Targaryens with some marrying between the two houses so maybe some of the Daynes picked up some Targaryen colouring. For some reason, since reading about Ned Dayne, I pictured him with the same colour hair as Arya... *shrugs* But that's just me...

I always thought that Jon was a Targaryen just because for the casual reader, they'd assume that his mother would be Wylla since that was what was claimed in A Storm of Swords. If I hadn't gone looking for theories and dicussion, I know that I would never have even conceived of R + L = J theory although that doesn't mean anything since I'm blind.

[hodor]

I am sure of it. There is more to meets the eye about Jon's heritage. For one there has been too much conversation in the books about it and it is definitely the GRRM style to do this. I am positive Jon is part Stark... and am fairly sure he is a product of Rhaegar.

[Raven]

Just to clarify: I think Brian has confused two of my more recent posts. One, where I said that the absence of Targ traits in Jon's appearance doesn't rule out him having Targ blood, and another where I said that violet eyes and silver hair don't necessarily indicate Targ blood anyway - they can represent other strains of Valyrian blood.

You need to understand that GRRM has said that genetics, as such, don't work in ASOIAF. If they did, the classic 'House looks' and other traits that are passed down 'in the blood' would be mixed up by thousands of years of noble intermarriage in Westeros.

Thus, it's a bit misleading to talk about some House looks being 'dominant' or 'recessive', since these are genetic terms.

House looks can be typically dominant over other House looks, as is the case with Baratheon/Lannister marriages, where every recorded child of the union has had Baratheon looks. But that doesn't make Baratheon looks 'dominant' in general. Stannis' daughter has Florent looks, for example, as does Edric Storm. Everything depends on what blood is matched with what.

So, it is perfectly possible that Stark looks can win over Targaryen looks every time, despite Stark looks usually losing out to Tully looks. The latter does not indicate that the Stark blood is generally weak, or recessive. (Indeed, if it was, it's hard to see how the Starks of the present could resemble the Starks of the past.)

Targaryen looks are hard to judge, as hodor notes, because of the intermarriage. Also, there is some indication that, where intermarriage was impossible, the Targs preferred to find brides with Valyrian blood - which, as I noted above, can mean similar looks. House Velaryon is the example given - they are said to have provided three brides for Targaryens because of their Valyrian blood.

The Dornish marriage that produced Baelor Breakspear was a rare (but not unique) exception to this. In that case, the Targ looks lost out to Martell looks. In the case of Rhaegar and Elia's marriage, GRRM has confirmed that Rhaenys looked like a Martell, and Aegon a Targaryen.

Thus, at least one of Rhaegar's kids didn't look like him. It's not unreasonable to assume that another one didn't either.

[hodor]

IMO the only defined dominant family genetic capability lies within the Baratheon family. All others are up for grabs or dependant on marriage. Added to this is the fact that the only time genetic dominancy what brought into evidence was in the Baratheon case. Targaryan's don't count as they are usually inbred.

[AryaUnderfoot]

I'm sure you all have had the basic education on genetics that many children go through. Therefore you'll know that for the most part, recessive traits generally turn up in one child out of four.

Has anyone considered that nowhere in science does it say exactly when the recessive child would show up? I mean, there's nothing to say that said child would the be first, second, third, or fourth child. It all boils down to probability. So yes, it is unlikely that Jon would have dark coloring, given the standard Targaryen characteristics, but it seems he would have a 25% chance of looking like that. It's not that unusual. My parents are both dark haired, and out of the five kids in my family, two are blond.

In addition, inbreeding makes for very weak genes; just ask anyone in West Virginia, lol. There's no reason why a robust Stark couldn't bear the child of a Targaryen and have a nice little brunette son.

Just my two cents!

[hodor]

West Virginia Arya??? Are you a part of the militia...?? HEHEHE

[AryaUnderfoot]

Not part of a militia, no... I went to college, or "university," as they say, in Pennsylvania though. We headed down to West Virginny a few times and saw vast herds of mullets engaging in primitive social rituals involving tractors and a lot of beef. It was breathtaking, really, to see them in their natural habitat like that.

[erickad71]

Originally Posted by AryaUnderfoot

Not part of a militia, no... I went to college, or "university," as they say, in Pennsylvania though. We headed down to West Virginny a few times and saw vast herds of mullets engaging in primitive social rituals involving tractors and a lot of beef. It was breathtaking, really, to see them in their natural habitat like that.

...that's pretty darn funny!

[hodor]

Aye.. don't got any scary pics to share with us...

[AryaUnderfoot]

Originally Posted by hodor

Aye.. don't got any scary pics to share with us...

Sorry, I was afraid the camera flash might spook them and start a stampede.

[hodor]

LOL... don't want a stampede with a bunch of mullets... scary.