Dividing up the allegorical and real - Science Fiction Fantasy Chronicles: forums

GrownUp · 22nd February 2005, 01:01 AM

You know how Terry Pratchett's books are allegories? I think that Pratchett's
characters can be split into two categories. People who would fit into the real
world and people who are immersed in the Discworld setup.

Vetinari, for example. He's so uncannily like Queen Elizabeth the First that
I bet if you switched them quick no-one would ever know the difference.

But Granny Weatherwax is a Discworld construct. She could never exist here
where magic has never been real. The parallel of old wise woman is there, but
she couldn't just be a herbs & berries type of healer, could she?

dwndrgn · 23rd February 2005, 08:18 AM

Oh, I disagree. Even without magic, I've met many Granny Weatherwaxes in my lifetime. Especially since her basic philosophy seems to be that magic isn't needed as long as you have smarts, cleverness, knowledge and a basic understanding of people.

Leto · 23rd February 2005, 08:25 AM

You mean headology ? Yep, my own grandmother was like this.
otherwise I have yet to meet a Nobby Nobbs IRL.

GrownUp · 23rd February 2005, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leto

You mean headology ? Yep, my own grandmother was like this.
otherwise I have yet to meet a Nobby Nobbs IRL.

Come to London. There are like six of them down the pub and another three at the police station.

dwndrgn · 23rd February 2005, 02:27 PM

Who hasn't met a Cut Me Own Throat Dibbler? The only one I think I haven't met yet (other than Death and the like) is Ole Blind Ron.

GrownUp · 23rd February 2005, 02:57 PM

I still don't know about Granny Weatherwax. I reckon the wizards at the University could swap magic for Philosophy, Theology, The Classics, as long as they still had offices and power and could be cantankerous, but not her, I reckon. The sort of advanced logic she uses is only part of her. I don't reckon she could sit in her house and use her empathy to imagine what other people and things are feeling in a real world. Magic and - the exchange - are integral to her.
In fact, that is her great problem. Being an ordinary person as well having this real great power and ability. If she was an ordinary wise woman as you would get here she would be better off. Less conflicted, I reckon.

Estelthea · 23rd February 2005, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrownUp

Vetinari, for example. He's so uncannily like Queen Elizabeth the First that
I bet if you switched them quick no-one would ever know the difference.

Vetinari the Virgin (allegedly anyway) Queen? I think someone might notice

Anorak: Vetinari was inspired by Renaissance Italy, the Medici family particualrly (look at the names) but I think most of the ruling familes at the time were of a similar ilk. I'm sure TP has said this himself but it is quite a well known comparison anyway.

GrownUp · 24th February 2005, 04:51 PM

Estelthea you're a mine of information.
I suppose my mind flies to Queen Liz I because she is one of the characters I know better.

What country, I mean, is there a country which corresponds to Krull?

Estelthea · 25th February 2005, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrownUp

Estelthea you're a mine of information.
I suppose my mind flies to Queen Liz I because she is one of the characters I know better.

http://www.ie.lspace.org/books/apf/index.html is a mine of information!

zorcarepublic · 25th February 2005, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrownUp

Estelthea you're a mine of information.
I suppose my mind flies to Queen Liz I because she is one of the characters I know better.

What country, I mean, is there a country which corresponds to Krull?

Possibly America? There isn't one in the Discworld otherwise, and they did have that programme to ascertain the sex of the Great A'Tuin.

Estelthea · 25th February 2005, 01:13 PM

I'm not sure there is a country in our world that coresponds to Krull but it might be based on a place in another book since most of the early Discworld novels tended to parody fantasy and SF more frequently than this world.

A quick search around the internet turned up this http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085811/ which may or may not be relevant (The Colour of Magic was first published in the same year). Anyone seen it who can elaborate?

GrownUp · 2nd March 2005, 08:33 AM

Oh no. Krull, although a classic, with a spider-woman and a cyclops that gets all mashed up in some sliding doors (why has that never happened in Star Trek?) doesn't bear any obvious resemblence to Krull of the Discworld. Perhaps Krull is backwards for something. Llurk? Or an anagram for something. Lurlk? Kurll?

Space Monkey · 4th March 2005, 01:01 PM

Possibly not Weatherwax, but Nanny Ogg could be very real - I've known a few Nanny Oggs.
Mort is my brother - at least he was when he first met Death and 'couldn't find his arse with both hands'. (And walked like he had more than one pair of knees!)
Umm, apart from the metaphysical abilities, Susan Sto Helit is very real too - her unnerving attention to detail and the scary level of no-nonsense is someone we all knew.

Estelthea · 4th March 2005, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrownUp

Oh no. Krull, although a classic, with a spider-woman and a cyclops that gets all mashed up in some sliding doors (why has that never happened in Star Trek?) doesn't bear any obvious resemblence to Krull of the Discworld. Perhaps Krull is backwards for something. Llurk? Or an anagram for something. Lurlk? Kurll?

Sounds like my kind of film!

dwndrgn · 9th March 2005, 06:20 AM

Krull the movie is definitely not related to anything Pratchett. Good movie though. Need to see it again sometime.

22nd February 2005, 01:01 AM	#1 (permalink)
GrownUp Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cardiff Posts: 426	Dividing up the allegorical and real You know how Terry Pratchett's books are allegories? I think that Pratchett's characters can be split into two categories. People who would fit into the real world and people who are immersed in the Discworld setup. Vetinari, for example. He's so uncannily like Queen Elizabeth the First that I bet if you switched them quick no-one would ever know the difference. But Granny Weatherwax is a Discworld construct. She could never exist here where magic has never been real. The parallel of old wise woman is there, but she couldn't just be a herbs & berries type of healer, could she?

23rd February 2005, 08:18 AM	#2 (permalink)
dwndrgn Fierce Vowelless One Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Florida Posts: 3,660	Re: Dividing up the allegorical and real Oh, I disagree. Even without magic, I've met many Granny Weatherwaxes in my lifetime. Especially since her basic philosophy seems to be that magic isn't needed as long as you have smarts, cleverness, knowledge and a basic understanding of people.

23rd February 2005, 08:25 AM	#3 (permalink)
Leto Outside Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,332	Re: Dividing up the allegorical and real You mean headology ? Yep, my own grandmother was like this. otherwise I have yet to meet a Nobby Nobbs IRL.

23rd February 2005, 02:27 PM	#5 (permalink)
dwndrgn Fierce Vowelless One Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Florida Posts: 3,660	Re: Dividing up the allegorical and real Who hasn't met a Cut Me Own Throat Dibbler? The only one I think I haven't met yet (other than Death and the like) is Ole Blind Ron.

23rd February 2005, 02:57 PM	#6 (permalink)
GrownUp Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cardiff Posts: 426	Re: Dividing up the allegorical and real I still don't know about Granny Weatherwax. I reckon the wizards at the University could swap magic for Philosophy, Theology, The Classics, as long as they still had offices and power and could be cantankerous, but not her, I reckon. The sort of advanced logic she uses is only part of her. I don't reckon she could sit in her house and use her empathy to imagine what other people and things are feeling in a real world. Magic and - the exchange - are integral to her. In fact, that is her great problem. Being an ordinary person as well having this real great power and ability. If she was an ordinary wise woman as you would get here she would be better off. Less conflicted, I reckon.

24th February 2005, 04:51 PM	#8 (permalink)
GrownUp Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cardiff Posts: 426	Re: Dividing up the allegorical and real Estelthea you're a mine of information. I suppose my mind flies to Queen Liz I because she is one of the characters I know better. What country, I mean, is there a country which corresponds to Krull?

25th February 2005, 01:13 PM	#11 (permalink)
Estelthea Bad girl ... gone worse! Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 78	Re: Dividing up the allegorical and real I'm not sure there is a country in our world that coresponds to Krull but it might be based on a place in another book since most of the early Discworld novels tended to parody fantasy and SF more frequently than this world. A quick search around the internet turned up this http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085811/ which may or may not be relevant (The Colour of Magic was first published in the same year). Anyone seen it who can elaborate?

2nd March 2005, 08:33 AM	#12 (permalink)
GrownUp Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cardiff Posts: 426	Re: Dividing up the allegorical and real Oh no. Krull, although a classic, with a spider-woman and a cyclops that gets all mashed up in some sliding doors (why has that never happened in Star Trek?) doesn't bear any obvious resemblence to Krull of the Discworld. Perhaps Krull is backwards for something. Llurk? Or an anagram for something. Lurlk? Kurll?

4th March 2005, 01:01 PM	#13 (permalink)
Space Monkey The Ninja Pencil Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 145	Re: Dividing up the allegorical and real Possibly not Weatherwax, but Nanny Ogg could be very real - I've known a few Nanny Oggs. Mort is my brother - at least he was when he first met Death and 'couldn't find his arse with both hands'. (And walked like he had more than one pair of knees!) Umm, apart from the metaphysical abilities, Susan Sto Helit is very real too - her unnerving attention to detail and the scary level of no-nonsense is someone we all knew.

9th March 2005, 06:20 AM	#15 (permalink)
dwndrgn Fierce Vowelless One Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Florida Posts: 3,660	Re: Dividing up the allegorical and real Krull the movie is definitely not related to anything Pratchett. Good movie though. Need to see it again sometime.

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