Has heroic fantasy stagnated?

[D_Davis]

Has the thirst for epic/heroic fantasy been met in new mediums such as video games? Not that video game narratives come any where close to a good book narrative, but we are no longer stuck just reading about heroic deeds - we can now experience them, even if only virtually.

While I don't read much fantasy any more, I still love games like WoW, Diablo, Morrowind, and so on. I love games that let me be the hero, games that offer me a chance to discover, quest, and explore a fantasy setting.

[Connavar]

Originally Posted by Bentony

Well, a lot of the basic formula is seen in Tolkien.
You could also, if you want to get really technical, trace Heroic Fantasy back to tales of questing knights - Arthur et al, the medieval tales of wandering heros, fairy tales - Jack always being on some sort of adventure, and even further back to early epic sagas. That said, the formula is very well laid down in all of these, but I still see Tolkein's influence in a lot of current heroic fantasy.
Look, I'm not knocking it as such, I enjoy an epic journey/ quest in search of a bit of mysterious bling as much as the next person (summer sales here I come) but there are - particularly in b grade fantasy - lots of Tolkein elements. And lets face it, a hobbit is nothing but an innocent adolecent about to be led astray by ye olde friendly wizard.
Look for example at the earlier Shanara novels as well as the Belgariad.
I am currently reading the Deverry series - having steered well clear of this whole genre for the last 5 years - and frankly it is rather the same old ho hum. Lets face it, even a claustrophobic dwarf would be a refreshing change.

I understand some of that but Heroic Fantasy is different from Epic.

Also not many heroic fantasy is about dwarves,elves stuff. Heroic Fantasy has more roots in Sword and Sorcery than having some elements in common with epic which are in fact cliches,sterotypes of the hole fantasy genre.


The wandering hero existed in fantasy way before Tolkein......

If not someone should tell that to many fantasy authors before him like REH,Leiber,Kuttner and i dont know how many else.

[Lobolover]

Originally Posted by j. d. worthington

So I'd say yes, there's plenty of room for innovation; the question to me is: how many writers are wanting to tell their own stories in their own way, and how many readers are willing to give something outside the norm the chance it deserves? Given the number of times such questions arise, I'd say there's a growing likelihood of both being on the rise, though it may take some time for it to be recognizable....

My sentimnts exactely-though I generaly dislike the Heroic fantasy as a whole, there are a FEW I like-like ˝The Black Abbot of Puthuum˝ from Cas.

[TheWeeper]

I ask this purely to see what people think: how much room is there for innovation in heroic fantasy these days?

By definition, fantasy should be the widest genre of all: technically, fantasy is simply whatever the writer comes up with, even more so than science fiction, which has to work within rules of feasibility. Yet I can't help but feel that a lot of fantasy is very narrow, both in terms of setting and plot. I can think of endless books set in a semi-medieval, European-style world with magic and (usually) vaugely heraldic monsters, and several whose plot revolves around a boy (14 tends to work) who discovers that he is either prophesied or the rightful heir to the throne or will save the world.

Now, I don't want to say all fantasy is that forumulaic, because you have to consider people like China Mieville and Neil Gaiman. But is there room for development in the heroic, descended-from-Tolkein sort of fantasy any more? There certainly was in the 70s, when Moorcock, Brunner and Lieber were writing it. But would modern publishers accept a book where, for instance, the main characters were all over 30, or the setting was mock-Turkish or Mayan, say?

I very much hope there is, but I would be interested in people's thoughts. I'm sure I and many other people wouldn't have a problem with a fantasy novel whose lead character was, say, a woman of 45, or a book that only ran to 200 pages, but would it ever sell?

Define what you mean by heroic. Do you the hero is noble and doing stuff to help people? Then the awnser is no because thousands of authers(i dont think i spelled authers right) allready did that. try somthing original. For exemple write about a hired assassin motivated by greed.But you can still write in a tolkien setting.

[Connavar]

Tolkien setting ? I have yet to read a heroic fantasy set in "Tolkien setting"


Funny the hired assassin angle you talk about is exactly like Waylander by David Gemmell.

If thats the kind of innovation he is talking about then no HF is far from stagnated.

[Celeritas]

no not really.....i'm reading a series right now that involves a basically transexual protagonist.

which is rather weird and refreshing...

the author is named lynn flewelling and the story revolves around a character who is physically a boy but in truth is a girl transformed by magic to protect her from her enemies...

it's not really top notch stuff per se, but the concept is intriguing and the internal struggles of tobin/tamir are very touching.

so there still seems IMO to be some originality going on, just few and far between...

the first book is called "the bone doll's twin" if anyone is interested. i'm about halfway through it and it's the first book of a trilogy.

[j. d. worthington]

Originally Posted by Celeritas

...the story revolves around a character who is physically a boy but in truth is a girl transformed by magic to protect her from her enemies...

Not quite the same (as it wasn't done to protect her from her enemies, as I recall), but this sort of thing is far from new... in fact, you'll find it in The Marvellous Land of Oz, by L. Frank Baum....

Still, the point that people are finding new ways to address even old tropes and themes is, I think, very valid....

[Celeritas]

ERG! don't spoil it! I did mention I was only halfway through, didn't I?

and yes Lhel did! Erius was gonna kill any female heir he found. But that's another chat...


but really I think it really depends on your personal definition of stagnated as well as how extensively you have read. *impish grin at jd. does that stand for jurassic dinosaur? =P)

I draw my my personal conclusion because I tend to examine minor details to the death. I'm nit-picky when it comes to the breakdown of story elements. think of a mad physicist mucking around with radioactive particles.

and i've read some of Baum's work but not that one. i'll put it on the list. thanks. =)

[Bentony]

Old idea - used by Virginia Wolf in Orlando

[j. d. worthington]

Originally Posted by Celeritas

*impish grin at jd. does that stand for jurassic dinosaur? =P)

Actually, more like "jurassic delinquent"....

and i've read some of Baum's work but not that one. i'll put it on the list. thanks. =)

It was only the second of the Oz books he wrote, as I recall. A delightful little romp, and the introduction to such oddities as Jack Pumpkinhead (who always reminded me a bit of Hawthorne's Feathertop, I must admit....)

[Lord Soth]

Originally Posted by Celeritas

no not really.....i'm reading a series right now that involves a basically transexual protagonist.

which is rather weird and refreshing...

the author is named lynn flewelling and the story revolves around a character who is physically a boy but in truth is a girl transformed by magic to protect her from her enemies...

it's not really top notch stuff per se, but the concept is intriguing and the internal struggles of tobin/tamir are very touching.

so there still seems IMO to be some originality going on, just few and far between...

the first book is called "the bone doll's twin" if anyone is interested. i'm about halfway through it and it's the first book of a trilogy.

Read (2 out 3) books of a trilogy by Flewelling a year or two ago, and it scarred me so much I still cant stand to read anything by her ever again. Just my opinion ofcourse

EDIT: Just realised I have brought nothing contructive to this thread at all -sorry!

[Rosemary]

I was just wondering if in fact heroic fantasy has stagnated or is it just the fact that our taste in literature has changed?

Like many of you I have read Kerr, Hobbs, GRRM but find they are not as enjoyable as they once were. Almost like reading a 'fairy story' in some cases.

I think we may have gone past that stage, especially since starting to read the 'epic fantasies', such as Eriksons 'Malazan' and Kirkpatrick's 'Fire of Heaven'.

[chopper]

ey up Rosemary

not finished Kirkpatrick yet - still hoping i can get into it.

maybe we've stagnated - or got a bit jaded? i've just had to remind myself that once upon a time all of the (current/perceived) classics of fantasy literature were fresh and new to me, just as they will be to my neice when she's old enough to have the Hobbit read to her. because there's a heck of a lot of fantasy around at the moment - it's more popular as a genre every year, i think - i think its very easy for it to become over-familiar. in much the same way as my enthusiasm for the new Dr Who has moderated itself over the last couple of years....

[Foxbat]

A while back I may have said 'yes' to the question posed but, eventually, I began to realise that it was I, as a reader, that was slipping into stagnation. I have, therefore, moved to reading other things. Perhaps this echoes Rosemary's statement that taste has changed?

Either way, I see it as a temporary anomaly and, in the good tradition that a change is as good as a rest, I fully expect, one day to return to reading Fantasy of the most heroic nature

[Werthead]

I think the answer to the original question can be answered with a big, "NO," due to the arrival of two books this year: The Ten Thousand by Paul Kearney (the writer with the closest chance of getting a rep as Gemmell's heir) and The Steel Remains by Richard Morgan. Both excellent, neither derived from a Tolkien-style medieval secondary world, and both doing interesting new things with the genre. I haven't read much by him but have heard that Matt Stover does good work as well.

The reason for the confusion is that the heroic subgenre (although I'd argue the 'heroic' name isn't accurate; neither Conan nor Gemmell's protagonists are always heroic or evne the 'good guys' in a given story) is being partially subsumed by epic fantasy, and you have characters who fit that heroic archetype playing supporting roles in larger narratives, such as Karsa in the Malazan series or Logen in The First Law, rather than having whole stories focused on them.