spoiler:knight of the laughingtree=jon

[AryaUnderfoot]

Interesting points made there, Jeroam. I think that Jojen was asking if Bran had heard the story before because there is obviously a very important bit of information contained within the story.

As for Bran being unable to follow simple commands, I think that with a good teacher he'll have a better chance. He's learning everything on his own. In addition, he really is a good student, to some degree. That's why he is so proud when he remembers all the history lessons he's been taught.

I can’t wait until Howland Reed comes into the story. He’s bound to be one of my favorite characters, I just know it.

[hodor]

Howland Reed a future PoV?... what do you thing?

[Jeroam]

A small observation on physical characteristics.
It seems to me that 4 of the 5 active threads on this message board are pretty much the same discussion. Who are Jon's parents? There is a lot of who has the Targ's violet eyes/silver hair and who looks more like a Stark. After posting on this thread, and giving some thought to the Reed's I'd like to point out something that may have gone unnoticed.

Jojen and his sister are described as having a lot of 'Children of the Forest' characteristics. Jojen has the green sight, and striking green eyes "the color of moss." The Lannister's also have green eyes. Jaimie "with those flashing green eyes," Cersei also, and Tyrion's being mismatched green and black. Could there be a connection there? Perhaps a Children of the Forest and Lann the Clever from the Age of Heroes interaction that will be revealed later on. Is anybody else itching for a complete Age of Heroes novel?

[Jeroam]

Hodor said:
Howland Reed a future PoV?... what do you think?

Woah, dude, man, heavy, you're blowing my mind.

[erickad71]

Personally, I'm hoping Howland is the new mystery POV.

[hodor]

Originally Posted by Jeroam

A small observation on physical characteristics.
It seems to me that 4 of the 5 active threads on this message board are pretty much the same discussion. Who are Jon's parents? There is a lot of who has the Targ's violet eyes/silver hair and who looks more like a Stark. After posting on this thread, and giving some thought to the Reed's I'd like to point out something that may have gone unnoticed.

Jojen and his sister are described as having a lot of 'Children of the Forest' characteristics. Jojen has the green sight, and striking green eyes "the color of moss." The Lannister's also have green eyes. Jaimie "with those flashing green eyes," Cersei also, and Tyrion's being mismatched green and black. Could there be a connection there? Perhaps a Children of the Forest and Lann the Clever from the Age of Heroes interaction that will be revealed later on. Is anybody else itching for a complete Age of Heroes novel?

I believe I already brought up the Children in relation to the crannogs in another post... I am just not sure which one.

[AryaUnderfoot]

I"m digging Howland as a future PoV.

[Culhwch]

Originally Posted by MIDNIGHT

Thanks for the defense Raven about Lyanna being the mystery knight.Here is a simple point to those who still think the mystery knight was the crannogman.The crannogman states to the 2 stark brothers that he was to small and had no skill to defend himself, how can this crannogman be Howland reed who in such a short time becomes a warrior/defender friend of Ned stark during the war.I would think that it would take more than a year to train in the arts of warfare.Not to mention that if the crannogman was really Howland Reed why didn't Lyanna or any of the Starks recognize him as one of their bannormen(the Reeds are sworn to the north)Lyanna only recognized him as a crannogman.I'm not buying the theory that he is Howland Reed sorry.Anybody want to take some bets?

Went back and read this passage again last night. I think the crannogman is definitely Howland Reed. Two points - Lyanna did recognise him: "'That's my father's man you're kicking,' howled the she-wolf." When I read this, I immediately thought 'father's man' equated to bannerman, not just any crannogman (though this could be so). Second and most telling point: "He was of high birth, and had as much a right to a place on the bench as any other man." What crannogmen other than the Reeds are noble? It could only be Howland, unless he has brothers we haven't heard of.

And I'm still of the opinion the Knight of the Laughing Tree was Howland, too. Why else show the crannogman praying to the old gods of north and Neck and the Isle of Faces? And, after the crannogman has spent winter on the Isle of Faces, who would be more likely to have a heart tree on their shield? Plus, I don't think Lyanna was short of stature. Could be wrong, but I always pictured her as of a height with Ned and her brothers. Plus the knight had a booming voice, which I don't equate with Lyanna either.

And I don't think Howland is ever described as a great warrior/defender of Ned, just a companion. No doubt he can fight, although he's probably no Robert Baratheon.

One thing I took away from this chapter is that sometimes Bran seems quite quick-witted, and other times dumb as a door post. A wild wolf, a quiet wolf, a she-wolf and a young wolf, and he doesn't once connect this with his father and his siblings, let alone the Starks in general?

Also discovered one of my favourite lines of the series, too, at the very end: 'They [the green men] turned the little crannogman into a knight, even if it was only for one day, he thought. A day would be enough.'

[hodor]

That is a good line. I totally agree with you about the Bran thing.... it totally annoyed me while reading through those chapters.

[Raven]

wrt Jojen asking Bran if he has never heard the KotLT story before: I have always taken this as good proof that Lyanna was the KotLT.

Why? Well, Jojen seems surprised that Ned never told Bran the story. After all, Ned, like Howland, was there. And Ned, we know from AGOT, enjoyed telling his children stories: Bran recalls how he would tell them tales of the Age of Heroes.

Now, if the KotLT was Howland, then why wouldn't Ned tell the children this story? I can't see any reason. But if the KotLT was Lyanna, and (as I already suggested) Rhaegar found this out, and gave her the crown of roses as a result... and therefore Lyanna's appearance as the KotLT led directly to her running off with Rhaegar, the war, Lyanna's death, and the birth of Jon... well, then Ned has many excellent reasons for never bringing it up.

It would be a painful story for him to tell, for one thing. And if anyone realised that Lyanna was the KotLT, it might lead them to question the 'accepted account', that Lyanna was kidnapped, for another (by coming to the same conclusions that I have here).

The KotLT, by the way, was short of stature for a man, which is what everyone assumed he was. An average height woman passing as a man would appear short of stature.

[hodor]

The reasoning is interesting. Good thought. I, however, feel that Ned might not have told his children for any number of reasons. Anything in regards to Lyanna and Rhaegar seem to be off Ned's conversation choices. However, this could be due to things other than Lyanna being that knight. Also, it is not too odd to believe Lyanna had a sword as we have seen Arya did as well; it is a bit of a push for me to think she had armor and everything else to be a knight... too much for my imagination there.

Also the only time we hear of this story is from Crannogs... imo it is far more likely the knight was a crannog. There is also the "voice" of the knight to argue against it being Lyanna.

[Raven]

Well, that just takes us back around in a circle. yes, the only time we hear the story is from the crannogmen... but they clearly expect Ned, who is certainly not a crannogman, to have told it. If he had done, what would that do to your theory that, since it's a crannogman telling the story, the KotLT must be a crannogman?

As for the armour etc., well, Howland didn't have any of that either. If he could get it, Lyanna could - probably more easily.

There is a school of thought that Ben helped her here, and that this is the reason he took the Black (ie guilt at having contributed to the events that led to the war and Lyanna's death). I don't subscribe myself, but it's one possible explanation.

Lastly, the voice: frankly, anyone's voice sounds 'booming' coming from within a greathelm. And I actually take the 'booming' voice to be an indication that, whoever the KotLT was, they were concerned to make their voice sound particularly deep, probably because it was not so naturally.

Think about it. Would Ned, or even Robert, be described as having a 'booming' voice?

[hodor]

Originally Posted by Raven

Well, that just takes us back around in a circle. yes, the only time we hear the story is from the crannogmen... but they clearly expect Ned, who is certainly not a crannogman, to have told it. If he had done, what would that do to your theory that, since it's a crannogman telling the story, the KotLT must be a crannogman?

As for the armour etc., well, Howland didn't have any of that either. If he could get it, Lyanna could - probably more easily.

There is a school of thought that Ben helped her here, and that this is the reason he took the Black (ie guilt at having contributed to the events that led to the war and Lyanna's death). I don't subscribe myself, but it's one possible explanation.

Lastly, the voice: frankly, anyone's voice sounds 'booming' coming from within a greathelm. And I actually take the 'booming' voice to be an indication that, whoever the KotLT was, they were concerned to make their voice sound particularly deep, probably because it was not so naturally.

Think about it. Would Ned, or even Robert, be described as having a 'booming' voice?

Robert has been described as having a "booming" voice many times. I suppose it could even have been Ben.... I don't recall his height but suppose Rhaegar went in search of him and said, "Hey man take the black." However, I can not be dissuaded in that imho the knight was a crannog. I do believe that Howland had armor... He was with Ned at the war and I could hardly picture him strutting around in a tshirt and shorts.

[Raven]

Hodor: well, Robert was a bad choice, though to be honest I don't recall his voice ever being described as 'booming'.

However, the point remains: this is a small man, 'short of stature', yet he has a 'booming' voice? Clearly, whoever it is is deliberately disguising their voice.

Howland has no need to do that. His voice is presumably not going to give him away: absent any information to the contrary, we have to assume he has a normal voice for a man of his size.

(Actually, Howland has no real need to appear in disguise at all, which is one of the problems I have with him being the KotLT. I suppose, if the Old Gods had granted him the ability to fight for a day, this might have been a condition or something, so that he wouldn't take the glory.)

By the way, Howland may or may not have had armour during the war (I suspect he had some form of leather or scale armour), but he certainly had none at the Harrenhal tourney. We are explicitly told so when Ben offers to get him some so that he can fight. If Ben actually did this, then Howland has armour: but Ben could as easily have done that for Lyanna.

Another problem I have with the 'Howland as KotLT' theory is that Bran assumes this (indirectly: he thinks it was 'the little crannogman'). It is the obvious answer - and therefore probably wrong.

[hodor]

Originally Posted by Raven

Hodor: well, Robert was a bad choice, though to be honest I don't recall his voice ever being described as 'booming'.

However, the point remains: this is a small man, 'short of stature', yet he has a 'booming' voice? Clearly, whoever it is is deliberately disguising their voice.

Howland has no need to do that. His voice is presumably not going to give him away: absent any information to the contrary, we have to assume he has a normal voice for a man of his size.

(Actually, Howland has no real need to appear in disguise at all, which is one of the problems I have with him being the KotLT. I suppose, if the Old Gods had granted him the ability to fight for a day, this might have been a condition or something, so that he wouldn't take the glory.)

By the way, Howland may or may not have had armour during the war (I suspect he had some form of leather or scale armour), but he certainly had none at the Harrenhal tourney. We are explicitly told so when Ben offers to get him some so that he can fight. If Ben actually did this, then Howland has armour: but Ben could as easily have done that for Lyanna.

Another problem I have with the 'Howland as KotLT' theory is that Bran assumes this (indirectly: he thinks it was 'the little crannogman'). It is the obvious answer - and therefore probably wrong.

Raven, this is all in assumption that the "little crannogman" was Howland and not one of his servants... I personally think the crannogs have something to do with the Children. I do not believe Lyanna could have disguised her voice nor do I believe Ben would have had armor made for her. In no place in the book has Howland's character nor voice been described... interesting... will be even more so when we hear more about and from him. Also, there could be alot of reasons why Howland would (not "disguise" himself) not reveal his identity behind his armor ... or any other crannog for that matter. These people are not as the rest of the Westoros... the live in hiding and rarely are seen.